the 'orthodox' movements emerged from the ashkenazi so the ones in palestine are zionist, but there's a variety of views on the state and violence---some don't like the state because its too secular, some actually oppose the violence on palestinians, some want to get all the benefits of being settlers without raising arms.
i don't know what you'd call groups that migrated to palestine and live in the zionist state other than zionist? just settlers? the great many orthodox outside israel it makes sense to not call zionist but it gives me some pause talking about groups inside israel.
but i didn't mean to imply orthodox sects were exclusive to ashkenazi ancestry, just that it came from eastern europe so its presence in palestine is related to zionism, even though its more diverse now
How many of these people are new settlers and how many of them are descendants? I'm kind of confused about the attitudes in this thread, I should probably actually read the post maybe the draft dodgers eat babies or something
This genocide of the Palestinian people as well as the creation of the settler state has been going on for decades now though, there's probably kids of kids at this point who grew up there as settlers
I don't have hard numbers for you, but there hasn't been large scale haredi migration to Israel since around the 50s, that is, 70-80 years ago. Most of the Haredi in Israel now were born there, we're talking about the kids and grandkids of settlers for the most part. Haredi tend to kinda stay in place, see New York.
Zionists settling and colonizing Israel of course is pretty recent, but huge chunk of the haredi there were born there at this point as I mentioned in another comment. We're talking about the kids and grandkids of settlers for the most part. Most of the people going to Israel these days though are reform/conservative Jews.
I'm from the USA. There's plenty of white people here descended from settlers that I wouldn't call settlers themselves, although settler culture is a still pervasive through the legacy of white supremacy. But yeah, it'd be disingenuous if I said oh every white person in the PSL believes in manifest destiny or something. For lack of a better analogy.
What I mean to say by all this is I only commented because it was an overgeneralization, anti-zionism is a defining characteristic of haredi Jews so it was just a little jarring to read. Certainly they aren't anti-zionists for the same reasons as you or I, but still
i actually think that is a pretty good analogy, embracing a genocidal ideology of manifest destiny/zionism is different from simply being in a settler state but articulating it takes more specificity.
Technically alot of Palestinians are secretly Samaritans who converted to Islam apparently and technically the Samaritans are actually the best monotheists because they didn't get sucked into the Jerusalem power struggle even when it first started. I'd love to be corrected lol.
Haredi don't tend to migrate in large numbers, and the last big wave was in the 50s. Most of them were born there. Their parents + grandparents + great grandparents mostly moved there either during Mandatory Palestine or right after Israel was established as a state. Most of the Jews moving to Israel recently are American and European reform/conservative Jews.
Most Haredi oppose Zionism as like a core principle. They think that only the Messiah can establish Israel, not humans.
But some that are born there live there for the same reason your average Death To America left type broke white person still lives in America.
idk it makes sense given we don't seem to think American comrades are bad for not moving (they pay taxes to the murder machine because they stay there) (America is a settler colonialist country)
Of course these people have probably like a 50% chance of just not wanting to be shot for the Zionist project but still benefit? I have no idea what's going on
The haredis are fascinating; how is it that you are so religious that you won't join the genocidal army, but not enough to move somewhere else?
The government of Israel pays them welfare in order to do "demographic warfare".
Aren't many of them descendants of Jews who lived peacefully in Palestine before Zionist settlement?
the 'orthodox' movements emerged from the ashkenazi so the ones in palestine are zionist, but there's a variety of views on the state and violence---some don't like the state because its too secular, some actually oppose the violence on palestinians, some want to get all the benefits of being settlers without raising arms.
Most Haredim are not zionist.
Edit: and not all Haredim are Ashkenaz either... Especially in Israel. There's Sephardic and Mizrahi haredim as well.
Edit 2: are you Jewish? This is just straight up false.
i don't know what you'd call groups that migrated to palestine and live in the zionist state other than zionist? just settlers? the great many orthodox outside israel it makes sense to not call zionist but it gives me some pause talking about groups inside israel.
but i didn't mean to imply orthodox sects were exclusive to ashkenazi ancestry, just that it came from eastern europe so its presence in palestine is related to zionism, even though its more diverse now
How many of these people are new settlers and how many of them are descendants? I'm kind of confused about the attitudes in this thread, I should probably actually read the post maybe the draft dodgers eat babies or something
This genocide of the Palestinian people as well as the creation of the settler state has been going on for decades now though, there's probably kids of kids at this point who grew up there as settlers
I don't have hard numbers for you, but there hasn't been large scale haredi migration to Israel since around the 50s, that is, 70-80 years ago. Most of the Haredi in Israel now were born there, we're talking about the kids and grandkids of settlers for the most part. Haredi tend to kinda stay in place, see New York.
Zionists settling and colonizing Israel of course is pretty recent, but huge chunk of the haredi there were born there at this point as I mentioned in another comment. We're talking about the kids and grandkids of settlers for the most part. Most of the people going to Israel these days though are reform/conservative Jews.
I'm from the USA. There's plenty of white people here descended from settlers that I wouldn't call settlers themselves, although settler culture is a still pervasive through the legacy of white supremacy. But yeah, it'd be disingenuous if I said oh every white person in the PSL believes in manifest destiny or something. For lack of a better analogy.
What I mean to say by all this is I only commented because it was an overgeneralization, anti-zionism is a defining characteristic of haredi Jews so it was just a little jarring to read. Certainly they aren't anti-zionists for the same reasons as you or I, but still
i actually think that is a pretty good analogy, embracing a genocidal ideology of manifest destiny/zionism is different from simply being in a settler state but articulating it takes more specificity.
So is ultra-orthadox ≠ haredim?
Ultra-Orthodox is a very broad and arguably very artificial term for a wide variety of Jewish groups with very different views.
Technically alot of Palestinians are secretly Samaritans who converted to Islam apparently and technically the Samaritans are actually the best monotheists because they didn't get sucked into the Jerusalem power struggle even when it first started. I'd love to be corrected lol.
They are broke as fuck.
How did they move there to begin with, if they're broke?
I think most of them were born there.
Haredi don't tend to migrate in large numbers, and the last big wave was in the 50s. Most of them were born there. Their parents + grandparents + great grandparents mostly moved there either during Mandatory Palestine or right after Israel was established as a state. Most of the Jews moving to Israel recently are American and European reform/conservative Jews.
Most Haredi oppose Zionism as like a core principle. They think that only the Messiah can establish Israel, not humans.
But some that are born there live there for the same reason your average Death To America left type broke white person still lives in America.
idk it makes sense given we don't seem to think American comrades are bad for not moving (they pay taxes to the murder machine because they stay there) (America is a settler colonialist country)
Of course these people have probably like a 50% chance of just not wanting to be shot for the Zionist project but still benefit? I have no idea what's going on
This is what I've been trying to express but poorly, this is much more succinct.