From the perspective of someone who sometimes has some cash to redistribute on here, I just want to provide some feedback on the semi-recent rule changes in this comm. I don't think all of them are working and I think this comm needs just a little bit more attention to rectify the situation!
First, and I hope least controversial: the sidebar desperately needs to be updated to reflect the actual updated rules.
Second, similarly uncontroversial, the rules should generally actually be enforced. Not enforcing them consistently is worse than not having them in some cases. This ties into several other issues.
Third thing, clarity is needed on whether or not payment details are allowed in the form of not (immediately) personally identifiable usernames. The rule rn says PII/opsec leaks aren't allowed and that payment links aren't, but usernames seems more gray. I thought that usernames weren't allowed at all until I re-read the post, and judging by the variety of different approaches to providing payment details in recent posts, I'm not the only one unsure.
Fourth thing, I think that strongly encouraging people to update their posts when they receive aid is a good thing for helping spread the community's limited aid resources around more where they are needed most. That's good guidance and I wish everyone did it!
Fifth, and to me personally, one of the most important, I am less likely to send money, if I have to effectively dox myself to the poster to do it, and when I have to ask for payment details over DM, that's basically what I'm doing (its trivial to correspond who I am by timing and payment method, even if multiple people do send them money, doubly so over multiple different posts over time). It's one thing for them to know my name or my venmo or whatever, but when they can tie that name to a specific hexbear account I start to go from "keeping the risk in mind" to "I don't think that's a risk I'm willing to take". So while I can understand the urge to not have posters dox themselves, the reverse is also true.
Sixth, as a result of having to DM for payment details (both because of the doxing risk and just the extra steps for both parties), mutual aid posters are currently incentivized to violate or skirt around grey areas of the rules if they want to get more aid. Combined with the lax enforcement/unclear rule, this creates a really sucky situation where people in need are punished monetarily for trying to follow the rules.
Seventh, related to #2/maybe #1 and others, I am of the opinion the comm probably needs another mod or two, it's pretty active and can be a fraught topic when there are disputes, and currently there only seems to be one active mod?
A further revision of the rules to explicitly allow non-doxxing payment methods to be published, followed by an update to the sidebar, would be greatly appreciated tbh. Or something like that. I appreciate all the work done to keep this site safe and functional and such, but these little issues have been nagging at the back of my mind for months now and needed to get out.
Thoughts?
Fifth, and to me personally, one of the most important, I am less likely to send money, if I have to effectively dox myself to the poster to do it, and when I have to ask for payment details over DM, that's basically what I'm doing (its trivial to correspond who I am by timing and payment method, even if multiple people do send them money, doubly so over multiple different posts over time). It's one thing for them to know my name or my venmo or whatever, but when they can tie that name to a specific hexbear account I start to go from "keeping the risk in mind" to "I don't think that's a risk I'm willing to take". So while I can understand the urge to not have posters dox themselves, the reverse is also true.
It might be a good idea to review what payment options are available, and see if there are options which are better suited to anonymity (while still being quick, and not having significant fees or overwhelming hurtles to use). If there are a handful of good options which are better than e.g. PayPal or Venmo, we should probably recommend them. If there are options which can be shared publicly without doxxing either side of the transaction (aside from the feds, who can figure out regardless), that would be great.
I've generally seen people use PayPal / CashApp / Venmo for this sort of thing, and all of them typically expose identities (at least, PayPal and Venmo do). There are other payment processors like GoFundMe, Patreon, LiberaPay, which are targeted more towards recurring payments, but these take fees and I don't think they allow for instant withdrawals (i.e. I'm starving or I need to pay for a prescription NOW and can't wait for a monthly check).
It would be helpful for people to share any caveats about payment apps they have used.
Aside from payment apps, it might be useful to look into (non-ACH) gift cards. The kind with scratch-off codes on them which could be bought at a convenience store and have the code shared via DM. Won't help cover rent, but could buy some meals or help order some items from online retailers.
After writing this, I'm beginning to think a general guide on how to seek/assist people in this way might be a valuable resource.
How about Ko-Fi? I know it allows anonymous donations (you can do this by donating without making an account/logging out if you have an account), fees are low, and payments go directly to your linked payment account rather than being held by the platform (this is all according to their official documentation). I only have experience as a donor, though, so idk what the experience is like as a receiver and if there are issues with accounts being flagged or anything like that.
I forgot about Ko-Fi. I have made payments on there too. Like you said, I was able to just plug in credit card info without making an account or anything. Also like you said, I have no experience receiving payments on there. It looks like they forward the payments through either PayPal or Stripe.
It looks like they forward the payments through either PayPal or Stripe.
Just to add more info to the conversation: neither of those pay immediately. PayPal can take 1-2 days, though I think they have an instant option for an additional fee. Stripe will take 2 days, and they'll also hold your first payment for a week and pretend this is a standard practice, though none of the others do it. There's no fee you can pay to get around that initial delay. (I set up online payment processing for my husband's small engine repair work, and we learned that last one the hard way last fall.)
Thanks for the additional info! When you say "pay immediately", do you mean pay out to a bank account, or do you mean become available to be used at all? In either case this wouldn't help with something like being overdrafted or paying bills, but I've been able to use PayPal for tap-to-pay so having a PayPal balance might be enough to pay for groceries or similar.
Almost makes me want to begrudgingly suggest Monero, but crypto is such a pain in the ass that I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to jump through those hoops (especially on the recipient side).
I meant pay out to a bank account. I knew PayPal offered cards to access your balance there, but I didn't realize they do the tap-to-pay thing, that's good to know!
my experience with this is:
- paypal leaks your email and probably name,
- venmo you have a username and a name field, for which most people seem to put their actual name, but I have some orgs on there that just show up as "org name" so it doesn't actually have to be your legal name.
- cashapp I think lets you just have a handle, but I haven't used it in a while because they just don't work with non-standard phone setups, and the webapp is purposefully limited (can't send money to anyone who you haven't sent to before via the phone app)
Does Liberapay leak any details I've been keen to use it but I don't know anyone else that does.
Edit: Nvm https://liberapay.com/about/faq#one-time-gift
huh I thought liberapay would let you do one time donos. I mean obviously you still can just cancel after one but kinda annoying. I know some payment types on there actually don't even support recurring donations so you have to log in and manually authorize it each month or quarter or year or however you have it set up.
liberapay technically isn't an escrow or anything though, so I think both parties still have some visibility into each other. seemingly you can set it up with square in such a way that the donater gets an org name not your legal name, but not sure about the other way around. paypal I think remains shitty even if done through LP but idk
A guide would really help I think. I didn't know most of the stuff in just this post.
Would some sort of escrow situation be possible to address the third point?
Last time I used Venmo and both me and that person know each others full legal names now lol
I don't know of any option for this that's easy and convenient enough to use for a person in crisis, and I'm guessing the site admins don't want to be the ones to run such a system either. But if there's good options out there I'd love to hear it. I guess things like ko-fi act kinda like that. liberapay too sorta. But those aren't trivial to set up or fast to transfer in an emergency
Fifth [privacy concerns]
Yeah I'd only "remit funds" to someone I trust and even then only to an XMR address (which I'd feel bad asking for one because it is admittedly cumbersome and for immediate needs not useful as said "funds" would likely be tied up for a few days unless you use haveno to try to get cash/digi wallet OR literally mail order drugs on the web lol which I dont mind)
right. I already have fairly low standards for privacy concerns here, but this is too much for even me lol
Does deleting a thread in mutual aid clear it out to other people? I always try to update then delete my posts asking for help.
I saw some people update their post title to have [Need met] somewhere in it and thought that was a pretty good way to handle it since its more immediately obvious.
yeah it should. I don't think it's necessary to go as far as deletion, but I don't have strong feelings about it.
"Creating mooches" is a pretty reactionary framing. Because we live in capitalist hellworld, and there's a limited amount of disposable income to redistribute between us, there's a genuine case to be made for needing to build people's capacity up to where they can support themselves, which I think is what most askers here would want anyhow. But the way that you build people up isn't by saying 'no more aid for you, back to the streets with ya'
Over the internet, you do not know what's going on in any of these people's lives. You can't. And so you don't have any way to know if you're "creating mooches." Nobody is forcing you to give money to anyone, you could just block the comm and never think about it again frankly, or just mentally note people that you feel are undeserving or have received enough, and don't give them money, nobody would know. If you have a problem with other people giving money to the same people repeatedly, maybe mind your own business tho
Likewise, it makes more sense to use that money on actual people you know and can see opposed to internet strangers whose intention or conditions you cant possibly know.
Let me know in a year if these people actually rebuilt themselves to support themselves- that is if they get banned by a powertripping mod before that can happen.
Hypothetically pearl clutching about mooches is not the same thing as generating an environment for people who are abusing other people's kindness and work.
You cant say anything on a main without getting banned by a mod unless its verbatim what they think or say. Ive seen someone get banned here for saying all US politicians are bad to the wrong mod. Lol
Ive seen someone get banned here for saying all US politicians are bad to the wrong mod
I don't believe that. Care to link the thread? There's a modlog where we can see such things.
guess I've just gotten incredibly lucky that all of my accounts over the years have only caught one comm level ban, and I was genuinely probably in the wrong on that one. Once in a while they're trigger happy but its not that bad, and the accounts here are anonymous and disposable anyhow
Its unwelcoming to see people get life bans over minor things, especially in a community that's supposed to see value in contradiction analysis. It really empties out any hope you may have in people.
"Ruthless criticism of all things" doesn't give you license to JAQ off about denying aid to people in need and using Welfare Queen rhetoric. I'd like to see what you mean about someone getting banned for saying all US politicians being bad, the modlog is searchable so if that really happened it should be provable.
People get banned all the time for minor things, im not going to take the time to search that example up, for what reason? It doesnt matter, it wont change any opinions. Whoever that person was is probably long gone now.
Any negative comment on the state and nature of the mutual aid is right wing reactionary welfare queen rhetoric, theres no way to question peoples intentions without getting jacketed as a reactionary. This place is not actually serious about that and especially when a mods ego gets tripped. It's hard to believe that anyone thinks that Hexbear doesn't have issues with its mods.
Obviously at the end of the day, dont give anyone money and follow your own advice. I cant help but feel bad for the white liberals getting rolled by people who have no intention of not getting free shit or literal children not having formed enough dignity to know when its appropriate to ask for help and when its not. Instead of doing epic praxis online why not use that money for irl?
