Context: https://sh.itjust.works/comment/2181865
Also lemmy.world is not the most stable instance and experiences a lot of downtime. My user experience got a lot better after I moved out of lemmy.world.
Holy fucking shit they're blocking piracy? What a bunch of losers. Get off the anti-corporate platform built on copyleft principles if you have a problem with piracy.
The losers are commenting on this site as well.
https://hexbear.net/post/317675
Transphobia? That's cool with them. Treating food workers like shit? Also fine. But watch a copy of a movie? "Horrible theft". There are people dying over preventable causes due to patents that aren't even held by the creators. I hate liberals
lmao of course the bootlicker clutches pearls over "trans ideology".
I created an account today on lemm.ee because I thought defeterating from hexbear sucked, then there were others and today was the last straw, even though I don't pirate. I didn't leave reddit for more restrictive platform. Lemmy.world sucks balls.
Eh? It's understandable. They shouldn't be forced to deal with any legal issues that come with it.
You can just use another instance that fits your needs, isn't that the whole point of this decentralized model?
There are no legal issues. You can fucking talk about piracy completely legally. This is a moral position being taken under the excuse of legality by liberals who run their server with a strict political leaning, as demonstrated by their mass banning of socialists and defederation from every left wing space.
Hasn't reddit already gotten into legal trouble multiple times regarding that sub? Even very recently with film piracy.
And let's not pretend these communities only 'discuss' piracy, as much as they try to keep it within that limit. These corporations wouldn't care even if they did.
The idea that corporations will come after federated instances that aren't even creating the posts instead of the source is nonsensical. Until the source is attacked there is literally no reason anyone should be concerned, and if the source is taken down then it won't be on other instances anymore anyway.
The idea that corporations will come after federated instances that aren't even creating the posts instead of the source is nonsensical
Is it? Content from federated instances are cached on the instance itself too, no?
I wouldn't take the risk federating with legally questionable instances, and no one should have to. I'd just use an alt account for that on another instance that is federated, and I do.
if the source is taken down then it won't be on other instances anymore anyway.
That doesn't seem to be the case. vlemmy.net has gone down permanently it seems, and I can still access the content on there that were made while it was up from other instances.
Yes, because it's illegal. If you're going to be the biggest host you're a bigger target which means you need to be more careful. What's good about the fediverse is that you have distributed instances so smaller ones can support things like piracy, and if a small one gets taken down there will be others in its place. The same game of whack a mole is what has allowed torrent tracker sites to exist. If there was one centralized torrent tracker site it would get shut down.
What the post says is exactly right. You'd be an idiot to have one account for your normal usage and piracy usage. In your normal usage you'll inevitably leak personally identifiable information. Having multiple accounts and multiple instances is the exactly right thing to do to keep piracy alive.
There is nothing illegal about talking about piracy. Get a grip. This is entirely about taking a moral position, because the server is run by liberals with a clear and obvious political position, as demonstrated by their mass banning of socialists.
They're not just talking about piracy, they're linking to it. There's piracy subs on Reddit too and they're allowed because they are very careful to only talk about it and not link to it, and they're severely gimped because of that. What's great about lemmy is that instances that are on with the risk can do so without having to follow anyone else's rules and users can access it by simply having another account.
Linking to pirate sites is also not illegal. https://1337x.to/ woooooooOOooOOooooo scary! I just broke the lawwwww according to you, get a grip.
I think the media companies have been abusing the DMCA to go after people who link to pirated material. also, I'm starting to suspect world is trying to get funding because they're trying to "clean" the site up in exactly the way banks/VCs require for loans. it's a conservative interpretation of the law, especially the recent rounds that purported to go after human trafficking but actually forced major websites to take down anything remotely objectionable.
Wasn't the admin of .world one of the ones who went into the NDA'd cocksucking meetups with Meta?
I'm starting to suspect world is trying to get funding because they're trying to "clean" the site up in exactly the way banks/VCs require for loans.
If that's true they're idiots. It's not even fucking necessary. All the social media VCs deliberately take the most neutral stance possible for the LARGEST possible userbases. Did reddit? Did any other social media site do that? Fuck no they didn't. They viewed them as user sources and valuable towards growth. It's literally the opposite of what every VC funded group does.
The cleanup only happens before an IPO. During VC funding companies are always as free as they can possibly be.
yeah, that's the part that confuses me. whatever it is, it's another stupid decision in a series of stupid decisions, and hopefully it just kills the instance.
"Wow, Blockbuster sucks because I have to drive to a physical store. I know, let's open up another brick-and-mortar store that's exactly like Blockbuster minus the name recognition. That'll show 'em!"
Reddit never had any issues with r/Piracy. They don't host anything, they just refer to websites that host stuff. If anything they'd help companies to discover what websites they should take down.
Sucks but if Lemmy.World is gonna be the "face" of Lemmy it's probably best to keep the shadier sides of the fediverse out. Just to keep the damn lawyer trolls off our back.
Plus it keeps the "uninitiated normies" out of the Piracy instance. At least until they know.
Don't you all love democracy?
Let's vote on who is the face of the fediverse.
Here's our actual logo.
My obvious bias aside it is a banger logo.
It comes in lots off different flavors.
:
Don't you all love democracy?
This sentence implies that you don't. Why don't you like democracy?
@Freeanotherday@hexbear.net was saying that the "face of lemmy" wasn't voted on, and is surprised, because libs like yourself usually like democracy..
it implies that it's not democracy. people just make accounts based on which instance is currently the largest.
They will never be the face because they're always down.
Facilitating Piracy no matter how you put it is wrong and illegal, it is wrong and illegal to support people who do it.
Remember Netizen, when you're pirating Disney, you're downloading communism!
Facilitating Piracy no matter how you put it is wrong and illegal, it is wrong and illegal to support people who do it.
I love how some people assume that everyone agrees on the ethics of piracy
"You wouldn't download a communism"
A would download & 3D print both communism & Disney, then watch them fight
- Show
For some reason now when I try to view the comment it's not there, but I can see it in the full comment thread. https://sh.itjust.works/comment/2195177
Hot take: .world and others banning/blocking /c/ is better for the fediverse and for piracy. It means less eyes on piracy discussions and incentivizes users to spread out to other instances instead of just all using .world.
Fantastic take. Imagine a conglomerate of smaller instances that largely make no waves and allow 70% of the community to just see what they want. Dare to dream.
Not sure why nobody in the comments is distinguishing between blocking a community on an instance (removing /c/piracy) and defederating instances (saying your users can't subscribe to otherinstance.com/c/piracy). They are very different things. We should be very skeptical of defederation.
Removing a community because it violates the rules of your instance is A-OK and every instance should do this. Anybody can run an instance, and anybody can set their own rules, that's the whole idea of federation.
De-federating other instances because you find their content objectionable is less ok. Lemmy is like e-mail. Everybody registers at gmail or office365 or myfavoriteemail.com. Every email host runs their own servers, but they all talk to each other through an open protocol. You would be pissed to find out that gmail just suddenly decided to stop accepting mail from someothermailprovider.com because a bunch of their users are pirates or tankies. Or blocked your favourite email newsletter from reaching your inbox because it had inflammatory political content.
Allowing your users to receive e-mail, or content from subcommunities on other lemmy instances is not a legal risk like hosting the content yourself is (IANAL etc). Same way Gmail is not liable if somebody on some other e-mail server does something illegal by emailing a gmail user. That's why you can register at torrentwebsite.com and get a user confirmation email successfully delivered to your inbox. Gmail is federated with all other e-mail services without needing to endorse them or accept legal liability for them.
Lemmy's strength, value, and future comes from being the largest federated space for link-sharing and other forms of communication.
De-federation is bad.
defederation is good for nazi and CSAM instances. no one should touch either with a 10ft pole. there's absolutely no reason to give them a larger platform.
"CSAM instances" <-- Pretty sure any publicly facing instances with this problem would be tackled by law enforcement pretty quickly.
as far as I've heard, they're still up and major instances are still federated with them.
"Nazi instances"< -- These ones will likely de-federate themselves from the wider federated web, they can't handle a broad range of perspectives well.
this is a deep misunderstanding of how far-right groups operate. they actively seek connection with the wider community because it presents them a chance to recruit and they're numbers get decimated when they're deplatformed. offering them a base of users to proselytize to only benefits them.
Social media has enabled these groups to both silo themselves and get promoted to users site-wide
yes precisely
This method of content promotion is responsible for the explosion of online hate content in the last decade
this has a deeper material reason underlying it. it's got more to do with economic decay and the lack of prospects people face than the algorithms. we saw the same thing early last century. far-right ideology explodes in popularity when the left fails to make the case for a more equitable distribution of resources and because our oligarchs fund them to an obscene degree -- minor fascists with a hundred followers on social media will receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in funding (cf Ali Alexander). fascist ideology spreads because it poses scapegoats for the problems in society.
Nazis had plenty of websites in the 90 and early 2000's but they didn't get much traction with them because Facebook wasn't forcing them into your home feed
yes, precisely. if normal instances federate with the nazi ones, this won't be true any longer because their content WILL flood the feeds of many people. this will have disastrous consequences for lemmy as a platform.
I really don't have a problem with these sites existing, people should be free to have their own disgusting racist thoughts and share them with their own little chat rooms and forums and the like.
I do as me and mine belong to groups they target. if they're allowed to rise to accumulate any power, it will spell death for us. there have already been multiple attempts in the US to organize pograms against trans people, as an example.
And they should be ruthlessly mocked and kicked out of every other space they could possibly go to.
however, I'd like to point out that 4chan originally started making memes to mock the fascists -- their use of irony turned over time into unironic fascism and they became a hotbed for neo-fascists.
Again, using the e-mail example, I can get an email from whitepowerwebsite as a gmail user. That's not google giving them a platform, it's just a neutral protocol for online communication (e-mail) working in a federated state as it's meant to
email is a bad example because it only provides point-to-point communication, unless you join a mailing list. social media is different -- views get broadcast to the wider public on a given platform. federating with nazis allows them to broadcast their views and create a sense that their vision of the world is actually what everyone else believes. exploding-heads is federated with lemmy.world and the consequence is that many users have left lemmy.world specifically to get away from the fascists dumping their disgusting worldview onto the platform.
Gmail isn't expected to police the entirety of e-mail, the legal liabilities lie with the sender and receiver.
they actually do have liability under laws like the DMCA, SESTA/FOSTA, and the new slate of laws recently passed to go after sex traffickers (and in reality a wide host of "undesirable" content more generally). but that aside, I'm not talking about legal liability. I'm talking about the responsibility the people running these instances have to not help build fascism. it's an ethical/political responsibility, not a legal one.
You are right about worsening economic conditions leading to the rise of far right movements. I was more speaking to their digital footprint. If you remember early Facebook, it was nothing like what people use today.
yes, precisely. if normal instances federate with the nazi ones, this won’t be true any longer because their content WILL flood the feeds of many people. this will have disastrous consequences for lemmy as a platform.
If lemmy A is federated w lemmy B (the nazi one), it means:
- Users on Lemmy A can subscribe to communities and users on Lemmy B and vice versa
- Users on Lemmy A can comment on communities on Lemmy B and vice versa
It does not mean:
- Posts from lemmy B show up on Lemmy A (except in the "global" view on main page, which is non-default, and likely won't show up their either due to massive downvoting). I would imagine, in time, that the global tab actually gets entirely removed since you have a problem where a single lemmy instance can massively inflate their vote count to make their votes the top voted posts across the whole network. You can't enforce instances to follow the rules on this and you can't audit their compliance. There are certainly some solutions to this involving blockchain but that's an aside and those are at least a few years away afaik. 90% of users never do the "non-default" option in whatever app they're in.
So this flooding the feeds scenario, I just don't see it. In user-moderated platforms, vocal minorities don't show up anywhere, they get moderated out basically automatically except in their own little enclaves. There is no scenario in which Lemmy as a federation provides a good platform for them (outside of their own nazi-friendly instance), because Lemmy doesn't work like other social media works.
In user-moderated platforms, vocal minorities don't show up anywhere, they get moderated out basically automatically except in their own little enclaves.
I will take this to mean communists make up a soft majority on lemmy given the number of complaints about commie posting keep popping up on the major comms
i feel like blocking of instances leads to worse echo chambers than subreddits themselves. We gonna have bubbles of federation networks that don't federate with each other. E.g. lefties, righties, "dark web" illegal shit, kinky shit, and instances that federate with all of them will be blocked by other instances because "use my blacklist or get defederated". This is gonna lead to hell for users having to create fifty accounts for each bubble. Aint nobody got time for that.
i wish it remained a user's option to block/unblock content they don't/do want to see. Each instance could provide their "recommended" default list of enabled instances, and user can go and enable others, like how NSFW toggle works. Maybe group instances into categories with tags or something, like "porn", "memes", "tankies", "nazis", "warez", etc
We're gonna need a Lemmy client that can log into multiple accounts at the same time and display a combined feed of allof those accounts...
Most people will not put their time and energy into running an instance which is destined to become a fascist playground with policies like those. You might not like it but in this real world that we are all forced to live in, that is what those policies lead to.
The primary purpose of the defederation mechanism is not to block content from readers, it's to prevent brigades. A big problem on Reddit is vote manipulation (not to mention shit stirrers showing up uninvited). On Reddit some mods would just ban everyone who ever posted in a subreddit (like T_D), defederation is essentially the same thing.
No it isn't. You've got the whole Fediverse to choose from. That's the whole fucking point.
If you want every single decision to go your way, run your own instance. Otherwise, quit moaning and find an instance that suits you.
Live in someone's house, then follow their rules. Otherwise buy your own house or find another house.
That's what I associate lemmy instances with. Anyways I'm glad that we are free to choose where we maintain our accounts. Unlike reddit wher we cannot even move in order to change the environment, cause it's all under one management.
I would say to all the people who came here from reddit that none of these instances are 'your' house unless you actually created them. This is September and you're all freshmen.
How very sophomoric of you
Sorry, I couldn't resist the play on words
You can discuss and promote piracy, but lemmy.world is the biggest instance so hosting links up pirated content will get them shut down. The post is 100% right, just make multiple accounts. You want the illegal stuff distributed. What's great about Lemmy is you can still have other accounts on those networks.
Lemmy.world is turning vanilla. They closed the shrooms community too!
Not sure how to properly post it for everyone, but Shrooms@sh.itjust.works or !Shrooms@sh.itjust.works
The only thing that makes data useful to humanity is the fact that it can be copied - not copying data is unethical.
I've begun blocking their communities in my accounts and I plan to defederate from them when i get home. Fuck em. Place is infested with exploding heads anyway.
Yea, looks like a pretty bad gutter alley they got there, it's one of those "anything goes freedom of speech" just to cover up for despicable ranty slurring.
Oh do please tell me about this "piracy" you speak of. Pirates are my people, I sailed the seas with them back in 1998 and my 28 kilobaud modem. Unfortunately I have lost sight of them in the private tracker wars.
Any Lemmy instance list which shows communities that have been defed by each instances? Should help new users make better choices.
I want to just block all the far right instances like .world blahaj.zone and sh.itjust.works from even showing up at all
"extreme"
Lol...
Block whatever you want dude... You don't need to preach about it
Yeah, freedom sucks and being able to say what you want is bad. All hail the authority.
Edit: there really are many communists on lemmy.
I argued with some idiots from the hexbear recently and their arguments boiled down to censorship is good and the state knows better.
World and shit just works are far right?
Also you can just create your own instance and defederate from whatever
But then I would also be defederated from most instances. What should be a feature is to defederate at a per user level. And yes, they are
Why would you be de-federated from most instances?
And could you show how those 3 instances are far-right? Seriously asking here.
Go to those instances and you will see. I only want to defederate from instances that allow blatant racism (blahaj) or transphobia (.world)
Woah, sh.itjust.works is far right? How exactly? Asking because I have an account there and this is news to me
Sounds pretty reasonable to me if the loser dweebs at lemmy.world want to ban the piracy comms. lol, even
allows piracy subs.Since the hexbear federation I've seen that little stormfront logo a lot, illuminate me, what's that?
An alt-right neonazi forum/organization/etc. Putting it to reddit context is for two reasons. First, because we're all pissed at reddit's recent behavior. But second because Spez has been accused (with evidence) of being sorta Elon-like in his courting of the alt-right, and possibly having extreme right leanings himself.
Stromfront is a literal white supremacist neo-Nazi forum. As in the logo on their website has "White Pride World Wide" written around a Celtic cross. If you've ever seen The Boys, that site is the reason the character Stormfront is named that, and she's positively nice compared to some of what goes on in that forum.
The whole point is to liken Reddit to Stormfront, and it's connected to hexbear because ChapoTrapHouse is on hexbear and ChapoTrapHouse is more or less the only lefty subreddit to ever be punished under rules against brigading, calls for violence, etc. They were quarantined and later banned. So since Reddit banned an explicitly lefty sub that one time, that makes Reddit akin to a white supremacist hate forum.
It's a lot more nuanced than that. The Chapo mods wanted to follow site-wide rules but reddit refused to explain what was in violation of them.
Reddit actually has a weird history of flipflopping with the banhammer.
Back in the day, the XKCD subreddit was run by a guy who linked a Holocaust denial subreddit and the red pill in the sidebar. Reddit didn't do anything about this. In fact The Red Pill still exists.
But then when the subreddit owner closed KotakuInAction, suddenly reddit doesn't mind interfering with the free market of ideas.
The Chapo mods wanted to follow site-wide rules but reddit refused to explain what was in violation of them.
And here I thought it was all the brigading and the calls for violence. Admittedly mostly violence against police, though not exclusively.
Reddit didn't do anything about this. In fact The Red Pill still exists.
TRP generally doesn't brigade, and doesn't engage in calls for violence. It's a shitty view of the world for sure, but they dont at least do those two things, they mostly grouse about shitty and unreasonable they think women are.
But then when the subreddit owner closed KotakuInAction, suddenly reddit doesn't mind interfering with the free market of ideas.
KiA has heavy handed mods that are basically the only reason the sub continues to exist, and an outright ban on certain topics they expect to cause contention. When the original sub owner killed it, the next willing mod down the line asked for it back and it was given to them. That's not radically different from what happens with other abandoned subs, except that usually they are actually abandoned and there has to be more talk about who should take over.
That's not radically different from what happens with other abandoned subs, except that usually they are actually abandoned and there has to be more talk about who should take over.
Reddit's policy has always been that subreddit requests only apply if someone actually goes vacant. The only reason XKCD still doesn't have holocaust denial in the sidebar is because the guy who owned the sub disappeared. The XKCD case is especially egregious because I'd argue that associating a public figure's webcomic with a horrendous opinion he doesn't hold is something that would actually open you up to a lawsuit.
Reddit’s policy has always been that subreddit requests only apply if someone actually goes vacant.
Q: If the current top mod for, say, a default sub had decided to just delete the sub in protest over the API changes what are the odds Reddit would have left it dead and waited for someone to request the name for an entirely new from scratch sub to be started as opposed to undoing the deletion and handing ownership to the next mod in line (if they were willing to take it)?
There is a stormfront subreddit, but it's a different thing entirely. Someone snapped up the sub name and made a sub about severe weather, specifically to snub their noses at Stormfront the neo-Nazi group.
Not as much fun as the worldnews and anime_titties subreddits.
Oh man, I remember when the anime_titties debacle happened. My front page was suddenly full of hentai one morning, and I didn't no why. I thought my account had been hacked at first lol
