- cross-posted to:
- globalnews@lemmy.zip
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/1476531
Archived version: https://archive.ph/r4ZKz
Archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20230815100118/https://www.euronews.com/culture/2023/08/14/muslim-women-harassed-at-northern-italian-beach-for-wearing-modest-clothing
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This is just prejudice mixed with ridiculousness. Yes covering head to toe seems weird based on western culture. But it doesn't hurt anything at all, there are certainly no hygiene issues. Do these people know what's in the ocean? Everything, that's what, you name it, it's in there. A bit of cloth isn't going to affect the ocean .00000000000001%.
Except... That's not how the ocean works? There are localized effects to pollution. You can test this by spilling oil in your nearest ocean. Watch how it disperses, and watch how it doesn't actually disperse that far away from you because of currents and whatnot.
Not justifying the OP, but your statement is really inaccurate.
How much pollution do you expect to get off a piece of cloth that's presumably been washed versus a regular person's body? Is it really inaccurate to say it isn't a concern pollution wise? Is it worth bringing up in this context? Despite your disclaimer, aren't you giving fuel to the idea that the complaints had some merit?
That's 100% correct though I'd like to add the caveat that you shouldn't swim in clothing -- Burkinis are made for swimming, of course, and they're fine, but the article says nothing about what the woman actually wore, if you're about to go swimming in loose-fitting ordinary cloth yes you should absolutely be stopped.
We got basic rescue swimmer qualifications in school (DLRG Bronze) and part of that was swimming in clothing (in particular, age-old ill-fitting flecktarn they picked up somewhere) and then undressing while in water, it is not easy even if you're a stellar swimmer, if you can barely hold yourself over water without panicking (that's like the default skill level of people who can supposedly swim) you're done for. Doubly so on the fucking beach with waves and undertow and everything.
You can test this by spilling oil in your nearest ocean.
Okay, but I'm telling the authorities it was your idea.
When did beachwear rules become more than "if you are of age, cover your private parts (unless its a nudist beach)"? What the age is and what "private parts" mean changes from culture to culture, of course.
I think a person should be able to wear whatever they want, fundamentally, but I’m confident that many of these women didn’t choose to cover up their whole life.
Why don't you go talk to some Muslim women and actually seek their opinions on these things instead of just assuming what they want?
As more people come into the west seeking something better, they need to abandon some of their culture that is retrogressive. Burkas as retrogressive.
No, actually. If they've had to come to the West because the West keeps bombing the shit out of their homes, they owe the West jack shit. Whether or not the Islamic community wants to change some of its cultural practices to adapt to the West is for Muslims to decide and Muslims only.
This is just sexpat white saviorism 101 wrapped up with progressive language.
"The exact same conclusion as Islamophobic chuds, except I'm being feminist. Trust me."
It's possible to be right for the wrong reasons. Don't let what "chuds" think define your moral code.
Chuds, like broken clocks, are occasionally correct. The key is that if you think you're looking at a broken clock, you need to check that the clock is working.
We do that by looking at how we got to that conclusion that resembles a chud conclusion and examining the differences between our conclusion and theirs as well.
In this case, the user I was replying to clearly had not talked to many (or any) Muslim women and is simply assuming that women don't like Islamic clothing because it looks uncomfortable. By that same reasoning, we should also ban neckties and high heels.
If the user got to the same conclusion as the chuds using such poor reasoning, I think it's valid to point out that they might be chud adjacent.
Most of the West by land area is built upon the graveyard of peoples slaughtered for their land and on the backs of people enslaved for their labor, but yeah that's just "some bad shit".
How about you Westoids deal with your own litany of unspeakable crimes against humanity by giving back your stolen lands and paying full restitution to the surviving descendants of your victims before you get on your high horse about how the Islamic world you've continuously bombed for the last two decades isn't "progressive" enough.
Maybe people wouldn't have to flee their homes and bring their "dumb shit" with them if you didn't keep blowing their shit up.
Ahh I see. So genocide is a-okay as long as the victims weren't densely populated and didn't think of land in line with the European sense of ownership.
Really, if they didn't want to be brutally murdered, there should have been more of them and they should have created bits of paper saying who owned what land.
Makes sense.
I know it's just an anecdote, but I've know quite a few Muslim women that prefer to wear it. I've also met many who don't like to wear them. Is it really fair to ban it for the ones that actually choose to wear it?
Women choosing to dress conservatively isn't exactly something foreign to Italians. Let's not forget that nuns also wear very similar clothing and cover their hair. That's not so different from a hijab.
hijabs are cute ngl, people are dumb
plus it gives you a great excuse to avoid washing your hair for a day or two while still looking snazzy
We're all subject the cultural norms of the society that we live in. Particularly with religious norms, maintaining them can be coercive.
But that doesn't mean that burkas, in and of themselves, are regressive.
Shouldn't the goal be to create a space that is free of coercion so people can actually choose to wear it if they want to? Outright banning them is just enforcing a different cultural norm.
Ah yes, we should liberate women by restricting their freedom to wear what they want to wear
the western white knight is here to let Muslim women know they don't know what they're doing because they're small-minded and brainwashedAlso, weird how you bring up burqas under an article that doesn't mention burqas. And you make it sound like only far-leftists are against a burqa ban when most liberals/moderates tend to be too.
High heels are actively and permanently injurious to the bodies of women in a way hijabs and burkas aren't. I never see these "feminists" argue for the banning of high heels.
I wonder why
Wisdom: If you're the only one wearing a burkini you're the immodest extremist in the mix drawing attention to yourself.
The definition of "modest" changes over time and is highly cultural and situational.
