A large flaw in Hexbear's dialogue is that it does not regard outsiders ignorance.
I don't know about others, but I am aware of it. I actively disregard it. I wouldn't call it a flaw, but a feature.
Hexbear is mostly an insider group where established axioms and knowledge are shared as common knowledge, and therefore not entirely elaborated.
Honestly I disagree. Hexbear is in my experience most often a mirror. I've seen plenty of people ask genuine questions and get genuine answers. The venomous hostility comes out in response to venomous smugness.
It isn't a substitute for dialogue, but becomes an echo chamber - fine in its own right - and stifles understanding of right and wrong to "vibes".
I don't really see hexbear as an echo chamber. We get plenty of smuglords chiming in with the same takes daily. Apart from that there is lively discussion and varied analysis of world events and political agendas. Not to mention how we're all mired in capitalist propaganda everywhere else.
I see people disagree all the time, I see lib takes often and those takes only get treated harshly when they're posted in condescention. Looking thru this thread it's not like the Kamala-people are being civil, so why should I?
I've seen hexbear users say they'll vote for Kamala and I've seen civil discussion with them - That was before her stance on genocide became clear. Now there is immediate hostility (specifically to the concept of voting for Kamala or Trump) because that is implicitly stating that the person is supportive of the palestinian genocide. At that point idgaf about how civil they were about it, they're literally arguing for genocide.
I don't know about others, but I am aware of it. I actively disregard it. I wouldn't call it a flaw, but a feature.
Same. It's refreshing to be able to stab someone directly in the ignorance and twist the knife knowing that they're both expected to understand the arena they've walked in to and that there are countless thousands of pages of analysis and discussion that have built up here over the years if they want to learn anything. No Hanlon's Razor bullshit, no ritualized civility, but also not the performative cruetly of 4chan. A bad question asked in good faith can be answered in good faith. An ignorant person who is willing to consider new ideas, to learn, can be helped.
But trolls and fanatics? Flay them.
I think we do echo chamber with dope ass bear characteristics at times, but also the Overton Window here is far to the left of what is considered sane and acceptable in Western Politics, and as a result many ideas that would be acceptable in "I'm as left as they come but" spaces are met with razors and lemon juice here.
And there's also a strong defensive reflex built up from being basically political pariahs in wider society. When everyone in your real life thinks you're morally equivalent to a Nazi because they think you support a bunch of genocides and repressions that mostly didn't happen having someone come in to the only anti-tankie mine free space in the Western internet saying lib shit tends to trigger everyone's fight response.
I think we do echo chamber with dope ass bear characteristics at times, but also the Overton Window here is far to the left of what is considered sane and acceptable in Western Politics
ohoho au contraire my dear pal, for you see, you have stumbled upon my rhetorical trap! heheehhe, you see by disagreeing with me on this point, you have proven my point that this is not an echo chamberspontaneusly grows a fancy and somehow already waxed moustache which I then begin to twirl you have been duped by.. The Rhetoritician! Eeeeheheheheeheehe
No but you're right. I just wanted to push against the idea we're somehow more of an echo chamber than anywhere else. It's not like lemmy.world isn't just a big box of libs patting each other on the back. This place was really bad before federation, so much self-congratulatory posting about not being reddit and pointless struggle sessions.
as a result many ideas that would be acceptable in "I'm as left as they come but" spaces are met with razors and lemon juice here.
You made me (fondly) remember the lib who cried about me telling them they'd get the shit kicked out of them if they were in my org for trivializing genocide and doing all the classic lib condescention.
ohoho au contraire my dear pal, for you see, you have stumbled upon my rhetorical trap! heheehhe, you see by disagreeing with me on this point, you have proven my point that this is not an echo chamber spontaneusly grows a fancy and somehow already waxed moustache which I then begin to twirl you have been duped by.. The Rhetoritician! Eeeeheheheheeheehe
The Rhetoritician would with zero irony make a great character for a post-dirtbag left pod and/or stage production. Especially if every once in a while Plato (was Plato the guy who hated rhetoric?) Would swing in on a rope and start a wrestling match.
The main thing I know about Plato is that he would write his master to say "Oh I'm so humble, I don't know anything!" while clearly not actually believing it and then put in other characters that would say shit like "Wow Socrates you are super humble and also smart and correct!"
The Rhetoritician would with zero irony make a great character for a post-dirtbag left pod and/or stage production.
This is a massive compliment. Genuinely thank you, this made me happy.
I suppose sometimes elaboration is something I seek in Hexbear comments and posts. Otherwise we talk in cliches and phrases rather than elaborated thoughts; though my experience may not be the empirical reality of genuine intellectual exchange, understanding, and catharsis here on this site.
As in this example, liberals tend to present the trolley problem but we already know that these groups are slated for danger and disintegration because the ruling class has decided this to be normal. The trolley is multi-track drifting, the rails converge and destroy those groups inevitably and the only remedy is to stop the momentum of the train.
I was referring to the axiom and common knowledge being relied on to communicate with one another, the way friends or colleagues with similar politics and world views use short cut phrases and conversation to recycle and communicate interpretations and understandings of history and current events.
So to an outsider it comes off as vague and esoteric, even to those who come in good faith, or share our politics but are unfamiliar with the culture. In other words, my experience on some posts is the same phenomenon of trying to interpret a Blackmoldfuture post; an opening statement that looks like it belongs in the middle of an essay or conversation.
I don't know about others, but I am aware of it. I actively disregard it. I wouldn't call it a flaw, but a feature.
Honestly I disagree. Hexbear is in my experience most often a mirror. I've seen plenty of people ask genuine questions and get genuine answers. The venomous hostility comes out in response to venomous smugness.
I don't really see hexbear as an echo chamber. We get plenty of smuglords chiming in with the same takes daily. Apart from that there is lively discussion and varied analysis of world events and political agendas. Not to mention how we're all mired in capitalist propaganda everywhere else.
I see people disagree all the time, I see lib takes often and those takes only get treated harshly when they're posted in condescention. Looking thru this thread it's not like the Kamala-people are being civil, so why should I?
I've seen hexbear users say they'll vote for Kamala and I've seen civil discussion with them - That was before her stance on genocide became clear. Now there is immediate hostility (specifically to the concept of voting for Kamala or Trump) because that is implicitly stating that the person is supportive of the palestinian genocide. At that point idgaf about how civil they were about it, they're literally arguing for genocide.
Same. It's refreshing to be able to stab someone directly in the ignorance and twist the knife knowing that they're both expected to understand the arena they've walked in to and that there are countless thousands of pages of analysis and discussion that have built up here over the years if they want to learn anything. No Hanlon's Razor bullshit, no ritualized civility, but also not the performative cruetly of 4chan. A bad question asked in good faith can be answered in good faith. An ignorant person who is willing to consider new ideas, to learn, can be helped.
But trolls and fanatics? Flay them.
I think we do echo chamber with dope ass bear characteristics at times, but also the Overton Window here is far to the left of what is considered sane and acceptable in Western Politics, and as a result many ideas that would be acceptable in "I'm as left as they come but" spaces are met with razors and lemon juice here.
And there's also a strong defensive reflex built up from being basically political pariahs in wider society. When everyone in your real life thinks you're morally equivalent to a Nazi because they think you support a bunch of genocides and repressions that mostly didn't happen having someone come in to the only anti-tankie mine free space in the Western internet saying lib shit tends to trigger everyone's fight response.
ohoho au contraire my dear pal, for you see, you have stumbled upon my rhetorical trap! heheehhe, you see by disagreeing with me on this point, you have proven my point that this is not an echo chamber spontaneusly grows a fancy and somehow already waxed moustache which I then begin to twirl you have been duped by.. The Rhetoritician! Eeeeheheheheeheehe
No but you're right. I just wanted to push against the idea we're somehow more of an echo chamber than anywhere else. It's not like lemmy.world isn't just a big box of libs patting each other on the back. This place was really bad before federation, so much self-congratulatory posting about not being reddit and pointless struggle sessions.
You made me (fondly) remember the lib who cried about me telling them they'd get the shit kicked out of them if they were in my org for trivializing genocide and doing all the classic lib condescention.
The Rhetoritician would with zero irony make a great character for a post-dirtbag left pod and/or stage production. Especially if every once in a while Plato (was Plato the guy who hated rhetoric?) Would swing in on a rope and start a wrestling match.
The main thing I know about Plato is that he would write his master to say "Oh I'm so humble, I don't know anything!" while clearly not actually believing it and then put in other characters that would say shit like "Wow Socrates you are super humble and also smart and correct!"
This is a massive compliment. Genuinely thank you, this made me happy.
Then salt the exposed flesh when you're done
I suppose sometimes elaboration is something I seek in Hexbear comments and posts. Otherwise we talk in cliches and phrases rather than elaborated thoughts; though my experience may not be the empirical reality of genuine intellectual exchange, understanding, and catharsis here on this site.
As in this example, liberals tend to present the trolley problem but we already know that these groups are slated for danger and disintegration because the ruling class has decided this to be normal. The trolley is multi-track drifting, the rails converge and destroy those groups inevitably and the only remedy is to stop the momentum of the train.
I was referring to the axiom and common knowledge being relied on to communicate with one another, the way friends or colleagues with similar politics and world views use short cut phrases and conversation to recycle and communicate interpretations and understandings of history and current events.
So to an outsider it comes off as vague and esoteric, even to those who come in good faith, or share our politics but are unfamiliar with the culture. In other words, my experience on some posts is the same phenomenon of trying to interpret a Blackmoldfuture post; an opening statement that looks like it belongs in the middle of an essay or conversation.