Democrats aren't attacking Jill Stein because they think she is taking votes from Kamala Harris. No one I know who's voting Green would consider a vote for Harris at this point. They're attacking Jill Stein because they don't want voters to know that there can be a worker-centered party to the left of the Democrats that supports popular policies like Medicare for All, a $25 wage and federally guaranteed housing.
There are 80+ million eligible voters who don't vote at all because they don't see the point. Democrats are okay with this, in fact, they don't want any candidate to their left to appeal to those voters with popular policies.
The fact that the Green Party exists shows that the Democrats aren't pushing the most progressive policies. Jill Stein's candidacy shows that it's possible to support reproductive justice AND be against funding and arming a genocide. That we can end homelessness if we stopped funding endless wars around the globe.
Democrats don't want anyone to the left of them to exist because it's the only way they can convince Americans that Dem policies are "the best that we can do". To Dems, anything else is just "asking for a pony".
Don't fall for it. Despite Dem's desire to have you think otherwise, things don't have to be this way.
Another world is possible.
Fearmongering is the imaginary fence which keeps all Democrats locked where they are.
Once the dam breaks and the Green party has a winning chance voters will flock to Greens in droves.
They are definitely trying to censor Jill to keep the Greens from reaching the critical mass needed to have a chance at winning.
This is an interesting perspective that I haven't thought of or considered.
I implore you, if you at all believe in a free Palestine, you will take action to vote for Harris.
Voting for a candidate who has vowed to continue a genocide will not, in fact, stop the genocide.
You have to work with the tools we have.
Bourgeois democracy will never willingly hand you the tools to dismantle itself. Nothing other than revolution will ever dismantle this system of genocide and working class oppression.
You're justifying voting for a party actively involved in a genocide by saying the alternative is worse. So, yes you are absolutely excusing what the democrats are doing. At least have the decency to come out and say it.
You keep bringing up Trump every time someone points out that Democrats are gleefully enabling genocide, yet no one here has ever expressed the slightest interest for voting for Trump.
You'll find that it's not possible for the US to completely pull out of supporting them with military aid.
Why the fuck isn't it?
You'll find that it's not possible for the US to completely pull out of supporting them with military aid.
Why not? The US has supported Israel since its formation, no arguments there, but so what? Why couldn't that change?
"Look at how long he has beaten his wife for. You'll find that it's not possible from him to completely stop beating his wife"
You'll find that it's not possible for the US to completely pull out of supporting them with military aid.
Then the US must die.
DONALDFUCKINGTRUP
The incompetent fascist is more scary to you than the competent one? Why?
The master's tools will never dismantle the master's plantation, cracker
if you at all believe in a free Palestine, you will take action to vote for Harris
How? Harris isn't even allowing Palestinian Americans to speak. She isn't even trying to appeal to them or acknowledge them.
I was idealistic when I was young too
Thanks for the compliment but my bad back calls bullshit on me being young.
And Biden and Harris aren't? Harris even parrots the lies about massremoved by Hamas and that Israel is defending itself.
Trump openly told Netanyahu to eradicate the Palestinians. Trump has empowered Israel over and over again.
Exclusive: US has sent Israel thousands of 2,000-pound bombs since Oct. 7
Pay attention to the news, please. Biden sent Israel thousands of 2000-pound bombs, he is helping Israel eradicate Palestinians.
Ok, sure. Here's the second paragraph:
Between the war's start last October and recent days, the United States has transferred at least 14,000 of the MK-84 2,000-pound bombs, 6,500 500-pound bombs, 3,000 Hellfire precision-guided air-to-ground missiles, 1,000 bunker-buster bombs, 2,600 air-dropped small-diameter bombs, and other munitions, according to the officials, who were not authorized to speak publicly.
Question for you, who has been the president of the US since October 7, 2023?
Nobody has done more than Joe Biden in getting the world closer to WW3.
How does enabling genocide prevent world war, exactly? Spell that one out for me, because to my knowledge the previous World War was started by a state who was doing a genocide.
I'm well aware of the history of Israel, thanks. Can you explain how the US's arming Israel for the last 76 years makes it okay for them to continue doing so? It was wrong then, so why isn't it wrong now?
You can be opposed to Israel's excessive use of force while still supporting the Biden administration's actions
No you cannot, because Biden (and the United States broadly, as you've been so keen to point out) is the one enabling their excessive use of force.
What we do know is that Iran is an active threat to the United States and other countries and, without Israel as an ally, the world would be under grave threat of international war.
One country in the region is openly murdering women and children, and it isn't Iran.
You are complicit in genocide.
preventing global terrorism
You're a miserable chauvinist and your college course would be crap. Israel is a rogue terrorist state that exists for the purpose of terrorizing its neighbors and therefore hindering development and destabilizing the Middle East
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HZs-v0PR44
You can be opposed to Israel’s excessive use of force while still supporting the Biden administration’s actions.
Israel is a settler-colonial state, all of its forces is excessive and it as a state should not exist. Anyone supporting Biden's actions is supporting settler-colonialism and terrorism.
What we do know is that Iran is an active threat to the United States and other countries and, without Israel as an ally, the world would be under grave threat of international war.
hahhahahahahahahaha
US and Israel are the ones funding terrorism globally. ISIS-K in Russia, White Helmets in Syria, ETIM in China (not anymore they lost), ISIS in African countries that "we" don't like (Niger, Burkina Faso, and others), and unfortunately there's a lot more examples
No it isn't. You can't explain our situation to us, you have zero clue.
Trump openly
This is the real problem that libs have with trump. He represents and fulfills all of their ideals, but without the pompadour.
To defend democracy
the US has to negotiate with the Israel terrorist state
And by negotiate you mean unconditionally arm their genocide?
Trump doesn't give a shit about anyone in the region and has fully supported Netanyahu's genocide
Again, the weapons Israel is using for their genocide were sent to them by Biden, not Trump. https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
The current conflict is largely due to Trump's actions as president and Biden's inaction as president
Once again, Biden is actively arming this genocide. That doesn't sound like inaction to me.
the US has to negotiate with the Israel terrorist state
This all checks out, because we all know that famous Bush quote, "We absolutely totally negotiate with terrorists"
Imagine what would have happened if Biden / Congress didn't continue military contracts
Show
Had you been paying attention to the actual news, you would know that the US has been arming Israel for decades
Okay, and? Israel has been a genocidal colonizer state since its inception. Every previous president who armed them is a war criminal, too.
This is the most complicated international conflict in our lifetime
It really isn't. Israel is a genocidal settler state living on stolen land. They should be abolished and the land returned to Palestine, its rightful owners. What part of this are you struggling with?
Not because the US supports genocide but because the US supports the destruction of terrorism in the region.
Oh fuck off. You said yourself they only care about Israel because of its position in the region. They don't give a shit about terrorism, they've been actively funding terrorists and destabilizing the region for decades. It's never been about democracy or fighting terror and you are incredibly naive if you still believe this. It's only ever been about extracting as much oil from the region as possible as cheaply as possible.
You are choosing the person who is literally saying he wants to destroy Palestine over the person who is "actively arming this genocide"
Excuse me? I'm not choosing shit. Please link to me exactly where I said I was going to vote for Trump. I have never once expressed any interest in voting for him, not in 2016, nor 2020, nor today. No, refusing to vote for Harris is not, in fact, a vote for Trump. That's not how voting works and you are a literal baby if you think not voting for a specific candidate is inherently a vote for another.
Biden and Blinken are still trying to get a ceasefire and support for a two state solution
They have never been serious about a ceasefire. Biden is still sending Israel all the weapons they need to carry out their extermination campaign. If he was even the smallest bit serious about enforcing a ceasefire he would stop sending them weapons to fire.
I very much agree with this.
No you don't, because you're still up and down this thread bootlicking for Biden and Harris, who are as vocally pro-Israel as anyone can possibly be.
Iran.
Is Iran compelling Israel to commit genocide against Palestine? Are they compelling the US to arm this genocide? What the fuck does this even mean?
A third party vote is the same as not voting.
Oh my god just shut the fuck up already.
If that's the case, Trump has informed us that he intends to destroy the region by permitting Netanyahu to eliminate the Palestinians
Harris has promised the exact same thing by promising unwavering support to Israel, just in politer terms that are more palatable to scratched liberals like you.
By not voting for the viable candidate that most aligns with your philosophies, you are increasing the risk of the other candidate's victory.
The Democrats are not entitled to my vote, nor were they ever entitled to it just because they're Not Trump. Fuck you, genocide enabler.
Oh well if they're trying real hard to get a ceasefire I guess they're just weak and incompetent. In which case why would I support them.
Tell me more about how elections work you seem to really understand democracy
The US is overthrowing democracies in the middle east. wtf are you talking about
It's absolutely incredible that people think this is an actual sound argument.
I'm voting for neither Republicans or Democrats so that means I'm voting for both
I hand you two plates of cat turds, common sense says you have to eat one of them. /s
This is so naive I'm gonna have to assume you're a literal child.
So actually the way voting works is if you vote for a candidate then they get your vote and if you vote for another candidate, then that candidate gets your vote and if you vote for a third candidate, then that candidate gets your vote and if you don't vote for any candidate then no candidate gets your vote.
Oh boy politics sure are complicated, huh? The only way your idea of 'how voting works' would in any way approach rationality, would be if you assumed that the democrats were somehow owed our votes. That doesn't really make sense. The way it actually works is that a party - or a candidate - courts voters by appealing to their interests and presenting themselves as a reliable steward for advancing those interests. If a candidate or a party fails in this, then they lose. In other words: If you want people to vote for you, listen to what they want you to do and then do that. Kamala Harris' campaign is a great example of what happens when you don't do that.We don't count the amount of not-votes a candidate gets, only the votes. But if it makes you feel any better we can say I'm not voting for Trump 1 million times and I'll only be not voting for Harris 100.000 times. We can even say I'm not voting for him in swing states! Hope that clears your heart flutters just a little so you can cool your head and let go of those no-no words.
Or Trump will eradicate Palestine.
Okay sweetie, so there's actually a genocide going on right now. You probably don't follow the news, but palestinians are being put in concentration camps and mass graves. And Harris has said she will increase support! I don't even know how it can get worse over there, but she has promised she's gonna let it get worse.
Do you know what a genocide is? Probably not, because if you did you wouldn't be running your mouth saying wacky stuff like your doing. The end point of genocide is extermination. The end result is Palestine being eradicated.
I know this can all be terribly abstract, so I'll try to help you understand what is going on. Now sweetie this will be a bit scary and it does contain some no-no words and I'm sorry about that, but I do feel it's necessary to make you understand. Still I don't want to shock you or traumatize you, so I'm gonna put it behindthis little tag
Booh! Scared you! Teehee. Sorry for the prank, but it's actually just a link to a discussion I had with a real meanie-poo >:( But I thought it would be better to give you a two-stage launch so you can really prepare yourself for reading some super scary stuff. Don't want you to be too scared to go to sleep at bedtime, now do we?
and when you feel comfortable and safe, then you can just click it and read it. Maybe have a juice brick next to you so you can have a sippy if you get scared.
But from my perspective it's due to not using our voices
Oh boy you sure are the first person to come with that analysis. You know liberal "democracies" are actually incredibly understudied, especially on the left. There's barely any text on the faults of electorialism, so I'm super glad to see your little theory you brewed up all on your own there. Proud of you buddy. If you wanna expand your horizons a bit, then here's a little bit of literature. Don't get scared by the fact there's no pictures! I know you can do it!
- The state and revolution
- Bourgeois And Proletarian Democracy
- Proletarian Dictatorship Vs Bourgeois “Democracy” (this one was even written by americans just like you! So it's not foreign or super scary even)
- What is to be done
Now you can probably figure out since I linked you a few texts that I'm being a bit facetious. And you got me. Good on you again! Maybe you can use that big brain of yours and think yourself some humility, it would do you some good. Maybe assume that the bare-bones drivel (sorry buddy, but it's really not very good) you're serving us as some unique insight, isn't really novel or unknown to us. We all exist in this society, we all see the same takes on the frontpage of reddit, we just... You know, think a little about it. We're a little curious over here. A curious little group of people that likes to just look a teeny tiny bit deeper instead of just incorporating whatever the TV told us that morning. Maybe you should consider doing the same yourself.
You have to compromise and move things slowly forwards.
Aw buddy, did you discover incrementalism? I remember when I did too, it sounded real swell. Sadly it doesn't really work, we've been hearing that stuff since the 1970's. Really we heard it before that too. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you that, I know it sucks to learn you're not the brightest bulb in the room. Hopefully this can be a learning experience for you!
Incredible I can just repost this comment more or less word for word you people truly are NPC's.
Maybe you don't take issue with washing your hands in a trough of Palestinian blood; maybe you don't mind having your metadata in the list of collaborators that will be made-- but I take a whole lot of fucking issue with that. Death to you if you thought in your personal calculus that the genocide of Palestine as a state and as a sovereign people was a fair price for the security of your rights. You are choosing incorrectly.
Death to Amerika. Death to the collaborators.
Agreed 100%. I reached voting age in 2008 and I was one of those "both sides suck" idealistic young voters who voted third party. I did again in 2012 and again in 2016 thinking "Hillary's already got this one, I can protest vote". Nope, we ended up with Trump. Ever since that I will only vote blue no matter who, at least as long as the Democrats are the only viable party with some sense of normalcy. Third parties are completely unviable in the US election system. We need ranked choice for a third party vote to not be a throwaway vote. Until that happens, we can't afford to pick "the best choice", we have to pick "the best choice that actually has a chance". Even if it's not really the best choice. Very happy to have gone out and voted early last week. We need the blue wave. Once the Republican party is thoroughly stomped into the ground and made completely unviable can we focus on a truly liberal third party, but honestly we probably have a better chance of slowly moving the Dems left than we do a third party taking over. It may not happen in my lifespan but I'd rather see progress than regression.
Once the Republican party is thoroughly stomped into the ground and made completely unviable can we focus on a truly liberal third party
The Democrats will never allow that to happen. Nancy Pelosi Says U.S. 'Needs a Strong Republican Party'
but honestly we probably have a better chance of slowly moving the Dems left than we do a third party taking over
Liberals said that shit in 2016 and again in 2020 and the Democrats have since only moved to the right. They've outflanked the GOP on the border and are actively supporting a genocide.
Ok, what is your strategy then? I don't disagree that some prominent Democrats aren't as liberal as we like, but Nancy Pelosi isn't a government official anymore. As the old guard gets replaced, the hope is that we bring in more and more liberal people over time. Voting third party is ineffective no matter how you look at it, at least not in the Presidential election. If third parties want any hope of taking over they need to start small and win local and state positions rather than just trying to start at the top. Another comment here said the Green Party has 200 elected positions of like 50000+. That's nowhere near enough influence on the ground to win a Presidential race.
Voting third party - waste your vote. Your vote means nothing. There is no chance that a third party wins a Presidential election and to think otherwise is naive. If you're a young voter, voting for the first time, you may think this is a good option. I sure did, and if you vote third party I can't stop you, but in a few election cycles I hope you'll come to the same realization that it's a waste of time. Hopefully your wasted vote doesn't let something as evil as Trump's Presidency happen.
Vote Republican - we definitely, actively, vocally, and happily continue to endorse Israel and genocide and probably stop supporting Ukraine at all and possibly even support Russia directly. We know what side Trump is on. Voting Trump doesn't help the genocide situation at all. Things in the US will go to shit, that's almost a given. Fascism gets worse on the global stage.
Vote Democrat - we know that there is at least conflict among Dems regarding Israel and Palestine. We know that they strongly support Ukraine and oppose Russia. They probably won't stop supplying Israel, but at least there's a chance that something will change. There's also still the subject of control of the Senate, House, and Supreme Court - the President alone can't do everything. It's not a perfect situation, but few things in life are. We do know that things in the US will be much better under Dems.
Unfortunately, it's going to be very very difficult to break the two-party paradigm without ranked choice voting here in the US. Do you see a serious path forward for the US that doesn't involve supporting Israel? I don't. At least not right now. Be serious. The US has too many interests (militarily and economically) in Israel. I'm open to suggestions as long as they are realistic.
We are not fucking liberals and the problem is that they are and that historically liberals have allowed fascists to take power. You Ave no idea what you are talking about.
Ok, what is your strategy then?
Nothing less than the revolutionary overthrow of the corrupt, genocidal US state.
As the old guard gets replaced, the hope is that we bring in more and more liberal people over time.
Remind me of the last time that worked.
Voting third party - waste your vote. Your vote means nothing.
Some democracy you've got there, huh?
There is no chance that a third party wins a Presidential election and to think otherwise is naive.
I'm under no illusions that my third party candidate is going to win. The point is to send a message to the Democrats that their unwavering support for genocide is going to cost them votes, maybe even the election. And if it does they have no one but their own genocidal asses to blame.
Vote Republican - we definitely, actively, vocally, and happily continue to endorse Israel and genocide
Who's arming Israel right now? Who has vowed to continue arming Israel?
Grow a spine and stop supporting genocide.
Nothing less than the revolutionary overthrow of the corrupt, genocidal US state.
There's a reason I asked for a serious answer. Good luck with that.
Good luck on voting your way out of fascism. That's really working out well for you, isn't it?
Hell of a lot better than "overthrowing the US regime" would that's for damn sure, especially if Harris wins. Just remember the Jan 6th people wanted to do the same thing, if for different reasons. Look at how well that's going for them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
You are a German in 1932, casting a ballot for Hindenburg while smugly thinking "I just saved the Weimar Republic!"
Just
even harder this time, surely that will stop the genocide [that accelerated under and is actively enabled by the very Democratic administration for which you are trying to shame people into voting].Just remember the Jan 6th people wanted to do the same thing, if for different reasons
Communists and fascists are exactly the same. Look out everyone, the true Politics Understander has arrived!
- Show
And how I pray there's a gallows for your collaboration.
How's the US regime looking to you? Healthy?
How's the genocidal Democratic party looking to you? Push-leftable?
Lol idiot
Sooner or later the us regime is going to collapse. It's fundamental tally unsustainable and just a good few crises away from imploding. And the best part is, you're looking right at the face of pretty much every kind of crisis imaginable. We've got climate crises, disastrous weather events, fascist coups, exploding inequality, de-dollarisation, the defeat of american imperialism in west and east Asia, mass immigration and so on.
So the violent overthrow of the American government is actually more realistic than trying to improve the Democrat party from the inside. Certainly the former will happen way before the latter.
We've got a very serious person over here
Yes what's serious is definitely putting your faith in a system with two options and if you don't vote for the one then the other one wins and the system is destroyed (half the population doesn't vote, the half that does votes for the destruction option). Sometimes even if you vote for the one the other gets to win because we don't really care about votes. BTW we've been doing this song and dance about "keeping [villain of the week] out of the white house!" since the 70's. Ask yourself this: If Trump truly was a threat to democracy, why have the dems done absolutely fuck all? Why are they completely unwilling to budge on any of their far-right genocidal policies? If Trump is truly this existential threat, why has he been allowed to exist for four years? Why did they try to run Biden, a man with obvious dementia, if Trump was truly this unique evil that will tear America apart? Doesn't seem like the dems are very serious.
What's super duper serious is going to argue with people who won't vote for genocide that they should vote for genocide. The most serious people in the room do this thing where they for some reason decide to focus on third party voters (who these serious people also say is of such an insignificant size that they do not matter at all) instead of going outside and knocking on doors talking to the more than 50% that doesn't vote
Online arguments are totally the sign of being a Serious Person (TM)Shut your klansman ass up, techbro. You wanna talk about "serious answers" thinking supporting the genocide your plantation owners orchestrate is "a serious answer". Here's my serious answer, you want a serious answer: the Black nation coalesces and sacks everything from Compton to Portland on the North/South axis, then everything from Frisco to Vegas on the East/West; then when you stool-pigeon-assed crackers start getting huffy about it? We'll start drone striking and rocket-launching cracker cities til you stop talking.
Clearly, it's absolutely within the moral fabric of Amerika, since you cosign Israel doing it to Palestine, so we'll do it to you and you don't get to fuckin complain about it. How's that for 'serious', klansman?
It's sad to see people like you who, despite considering yourself old and wise,know so little about history and the world that you've convinced yourself that apathy is the same thing as seriousness. It's cope. You're coping. Every revolution that has ever happened has "seemed" impossible until suddenly it wasn't, and there were always good little subjects like you to stand uselessly on the sidelines wailing and gnashing their teeth at the changing tides of history. Meanwhile, your very serious political ideology is doing genocide, cooking the oceans and pumping the planet full of PFAS. Very Serious, very sustainable, not childish at all to kill everyone over funko pops.
You think you've become mature, when you've really just become housebroken.
"The one who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the one doing it"
As the old guard gets replaced, the hope is that we bring in more and more liberal people over time.
We just today had the poster child of the "new guard" of the democrats coming out and talking about how great it is that nothing happens now. While we are one year into a genocide. While we are further building the wall and enforcing all the border policies that she went down to the border to have a photo op crying at.
Do you think AOC will save anyone? She'll just go back to brunch while the world burns.
Voting third party is ineffective no matter how you look at it, at least not in the Presidential election.
If you can't see further than a single election cycle ahead I guess. Consistently voting for the "lesser evil" will only make the "lesser evil" more evil. If there is a voting bloc that is strong enough to apparently scupper the democrats maybe they should try to appeal to them in any way rather than court the people voting for the "greater evil"?
Thought you were talking about Pete. He pretty clearly seems like the one the blues are grooming to take over next. He's well-spoken and probably a much safer pick for liberals than AOC.
Once the Republican party is thoroughly stomped into the ground
Okay, so we agree. You should not vote Democrats if you don't like the Republican party, on account of them thinking a strong Republican party is necessary, them inviting Republicans to join their campaign, and promising a Republican in their cabinet.
- Show
This what all you crackers look like to me at this point. How long is it going to take you crackers to cosign my people getting put back in trees, I wonder? I already have to hear you crackers making excuses for the carceral slavery system your Department of Corrections maintains. I've been hearing excuses for the concentration camps at the southern border for four fucking years now. How long? How long before I'm going to have to hear about you crackers escorting unvarnished and blatant Jim Crow back into the halls of our legislature?
You tell me that, peckerwood. 'Cause best believe: if you'd do this to Palestinians? We already know we're on that list, probably right after the gays, anybody that looks Chinese('cause Amerikans can't tell Asia's manifold cultures apart) and the Mexicans.
Oh that's possible, but I think the number of votes that she's likely to get is so low that there are much better ways to try to win the election than worrying about her antics. But if Harris were to lose, it sure would be convenient to have someone to blame, and Stein's an excellent scapegoat.
You don't have the moral high ground you think you have. You can't scare me with Russia when the US and many Western countries are guilty of enabling a genocide.
Here's what the Financial Times wrote a year ago:
“We have definitely lost the battle in the Global South,” said one senior G7 diplomat. “All the work we have done with the Global South [over Ukraine] has been lost . . . Forget about rules, forget about world order. They won’t ever listen to us again.”
“What we said about Ukraine has to apply to Gaza. Otherwise we lose all our credibility,” the senior G7 diplomat added. “The Brazilians, the South Africans, the Indonesians: why should they ever believe what we say about human rights?”
Just four weeks before the Hamas assault on Israel, leaders from the US, EU and western allies attended the G20 summit in New Delhi and asked developing nations to condemn Russia’s attacks on Ukrainian civilians in order to uphold respect for the UN charter and international law. Many of those officials told the Financial Times they have had the same argument read back at them in demands for condemnation of Israel’s retaliatory assault on Gaza, and of its decision to restrict water, electricity and gas supplies there.
source: https://www.ft.com/content/e0b43918-7eaf-4a11-baaf-d6d7fb61a8a5
archive: https://archive.is/TxkRb
Am I reading the article right? My understanding of what I just read is that in 2016 some social media accounts with ties to Russia put out some pro-Stein statements and then a year or two later Stein was photographed sitting at the same table as Putin.
Neither of those two facts suggest to me that she is, as you put it, "another Russian tool". Especially since the article itself says that there's no evidence she knew about the Russian social media accounts boosting her and there wasn't an interpreter sitting at the table with her and Putin.
Can you please tell me what I've missed? Is there more evidence that she's a "Russian tool"? Because the evidence in the article you linked seems extremely weak.
I want to beat you and ever other person that says this to death. Fuck off.
Bernie Sanders was that candidate. He supports the election of Harris because he recognizes that it is necessary.
Bernie sanders was a compromise and a terrible one at that lol. Unlike blue MAGA we don't engage in cults of personality, but are actually capable of critiquing our political leaders. Bernie supports genocide and sucks shit, why would I care what he thinks?
It's the same shit every time with you people
