Democrats aren't attacking Jill Stein because they think she is taking votes from Kamala Harris. No one I know who's voting Green would consider a vote for Harris at this point. They're attacking Jill Stein because they don't want voters to know that there can be a worker-centered party to the left of the Democrats that supports popular policies like Medicare for All, a $25 wage and federally guaranteed housing.
There are 80+ million eligible voters who don't vote at all because they don't see the point. Democrats are okay with this, in fact, they don't want any candidate to their left to appeal to those voters with popular policies.
The fact that the Green Party exists shows that the Democrats aren't pushing the most progressive policies. Jill Stein's candidacy shows that it's possible to support reproductive justice AND be against funding and arming a genocide. That we can end homelessness if we stopped funding endless wars around the globe.
Democrats don't want anyone to the left of them to exist because it's the only way they can convince Americans that Dem policies are "the best that we can do". To Dems, anything else is just "asking for a pony".
Don't fall for it. Despite Dem's desire to have you think otherwise, things don't have to be this way.
Another world is possible.
I want to beat you and ever other person that says this to death. Fuck off.
Am I reading the article right? My understanding of what I just read is that in 2016 some social media accounts with ties to Russia put out some pro-Stein statements and then a year or two later Stein was photographed sitting at the same table as Putin.
Neither of those two facts suggest to me that she is, as you put it, "another Russian tool". Especially since the article itself says that there's no evidence she knew about the Russian social media accounts boosting her and there wasn't an interpreter sitting at the table with her and Putin.
Can you please tell me what I've missed? Is there more evidence that she's a "Russian tool"? Because the evidence in the article you linked seems extremely weak.
You don't have the moral high ground you think you have. You can't scare me with Russia when the US and many Western countries are guilty of enabling a genocide.
Here's what the Financial Times wrote a year ago:
“We have definitely lost the battle in the Global South,” said one senior G7 diplomat. “All the work we have done with the Global South [over Ukraine] has been lost . . . Forget about rules, forget about world order. They won’t ever listen to us again.”
“What we said about Ukraine has to apply to Gaza. Otherwise we lose all our credibility,” the senior G7 diplomat added. “The Brazilians, the South Africans, the Indonesians: why should they ever believe what we say about human rights?”
Just four weeks before the Hamas assault on Israel, leaders from the US, EU and western allies attended the G20 summit in New Delhi and asked developing nations to condemn Russia’s attacks on Ukrainian civilians in order to uphold respect for the UN charter and international law. Many of those officials told the Financial Times they have had the same argument read back at them in demands for condemnation of Israel’s retaliatory assault on Gaza, and of its decision to restrict water, electricity and gas supplies there.
source: https://www.ft.com/content/e0b43918-7eaf-4a11-baaf-d6d7fb61a8a5
archive: https://archive.is/TxkRb
I'm voting for neither Republicans or Democrats so that means I'm voting for both
It's absolutely incredible that people think this is an actual sound argument.
I implore you, if you at all believe in a free Palestine, you will take action to vote for Harris.
Voting for a candidate who has vowed to continue a genocide will not, in fact, stop the genocide.
You have to work with the tools we have.
Bourgeois democracy will never willingly hand you the tools to dismantle itself. Nothing other than revolution will ever dismantle this system of genocide and working class oppression.
You're justifying voting for a party actively involved in a genocide by saying the alternative is worse. So, yes you are absolutely excusing what the democrats are doing. At least have the decency to come out and say it.
You keep bringing up Trump every time someone points out that Democrats are gleefully enabling genocide, yet no one here has ever expressed the slightest interest for voting for Trump.
You'll find that it's not possible for the US to completely pull out of supporting them with military aid.
Why the fuck isn't it?
You'll find that it's not possible for the US to completely pull out of supporting them with military aid.
Why not? The US has supported Israel since its formation, no arguments there, but so what? Why couldn't that change?
if you at all believe in a free Palestine, you will take action to vote for Harris
How? Harris isn't even allowing Palestinian Americans to speak. She isn't even trying to appeal to them or acknowledge them.
I was idealistic when I was young too
Thanks for the compliment but my bad back calls bullshit on me being young.
And Biden and Harris aren't? Harris even parrots the lies about massremoved by Hamas and that Israel is defending itself.
Trump openly told Netanyahu to eradicate the Palestinians. Trump has empowered Israel over and over again.
Exclusive: US has sent Israel thousands of 2,000-pound bombs since Oct. 7
Pay attention to the news, please. Biden sent Israel thousands of 2000-pound bombs, he is helping Israel eradicate Palestinians.
Ok, sure. Here's the second paragraph:
Between the war's start last October and recent days, the United States has transferred at least 14,000 of the MK-84 2,000-pound bombs, 6,500 500-pound bombs, 3,000 Hellfire precision-guided air-to-ground missiles, 1,000 bunker-buster bombs, 2,600 air-dropped small-diameter bombs, and other munitions, according to the officials, who were not authorized to speak publicly.
Question for you, who has been the president of the US since October 7, 2023?
Nobody has done more than Joe Biden in getting the world closer to WW3.
How does enabling genocide prevent world war, exactly? Spell that one out for me, because to my knowledge the previous World War was started by a state who was doing a genocide.
I'm well aware of the history of Israel, thanks. Can you explain how the US's arming Israel for the last 76 years makes it okay for them to continue doing so? It was wrong then, so why isn't it wrong now?
You can be opposed to Israel's excessive use of force while still supporting the Biden administration's actions
No you cannot, because Biden (and the United States broadly, as you've been so keen to point out) is the one enabling their excessive use of force.
What we do know is that Iran is an active threat to the United States and other countries and, without Israel as an ally, the world would be under grave threat of international war.
One country in the region is openly murdering women and children, and it isn't Iran.
You are complicit in genocide.
No it isn't. You can't explain our situation to us, you have zero clue.
Tell me more about how elections work you seem to really understand democracy
To defend democracy
the US has to negotiate with the Israel terrorist state
And by negotiate you mean unconditionally arm their genocide?
Trump doesn't give a shit about anyone in the region and has fully supported Netanyahu's genocide
Again, the weapons Israel is using for their genocide were sent to them by Biden, not Trump. https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
The current conflict is largely due to Trump's actions as president and Biden's inaction as president
Once again, Biden is actively arming this genocide. That doesn't sound like inaction to me.
Imagine what would have happened if Biden / Congress didn't continue military contracts
Show
Had you been paying attention to the actual news, you would know that the US has been arming Israel for decades
Okay, and? Israel has been a genocidal colonizer state since its inception. Every previous president who armed them is a war criminal, too.
This is the most complicated international conflict in our lifetime
It really isn't. Israel is a genocidal settler state living on stolen land. They should be abolished and the land returned to Palestine, its rightful owners. What part of this are you struggling with?
Not because the US supports genocide but because the US supports the destruction of terrorism in the region.
Oh fuck off. You said yourself they only care about Israel because of its position in the region. They don't give a shit about terrorism, they've been actively funding terrorists and destabilizing the region for decades. It's never been about democracy or fighting terror and you are incredibly naive if you still believe this. It's only ever been about extracting as much oil from the region as possible as cheaply as possible.
You are choosing the person who is literally saying he wants to destroy Palestine over the person who is "actively arming this genocide"
Excuse me? I'm not choosing shit. Please link to me exactly where I said I was going to vote for Trump. I have never once expressed any interest in voting for him, not in 2016, nor 2020, nor today. No, refusing to vote for Harris is not, in fact, a vote for Trump. That's not how voting works and you are a literal baby if you think not voting for a specific candidate is inherently a vote for another.
Biden and Blinken are still trying to get a ceasefire and support for a two state solution
They have never been serious about a ceasefire. Biden is still sending Israel all the weapons they need to carry out their extermination campaign. If he was even the smallest bit serious about enforcing a ceasefire he would stop sending them weapons to fire.
A third party vote is the same as not voting.
Oh my god just shut the fuck up already.
If that's the case, Trump has informed us that he intends to destroy the region by permitting Netanyahu to eliminate the Palestinians
Harris has promised the exact same thing by promising unwavering support to Israel, just in politer terms that are more palatable to scratched liberals like you.
By not voting for the viable candidate that most aligns with your philosophies, you are increasing the risk of the other candidate's victory.
The Democrats are not entitled to my vote, nor were they ever entitled to it just because they're Not Trump. Fuck you, genocide enabler.
I very much agree with this.
No you don't, because you're still up and down this thread bootlicking for Biden and Harris, who are as vocally pro-Israel as anyone can possibly be.
Iran.
Is Iran compelling Israel to commit genocide against Palestine? Are they compelling the US to arm this genocide? What the fuck does this even mean?
Oh well if they're trying real hard to get a ceasefire I guess they're just weak and incompetent. In which case why would I support them.
I hand you two plates of cat turds, common sense says you have to eat one of them. /s
Agreed 100%. I reached voting age in 2008 and I was one of those "both sides suck" idealistic young voters who voted third party. I did again in 2012 and again in 2016 thinking "Hillary's already got this one, I can protest vote". Nope, we ended up with Trump. Ever since that I will only vote blue no matter who, at least as long as the Democrats are the only viable party with some sense of normalcy. Third parties are completely unviable in the US election system. We need ranked choice for a third party vote to not be a throwaway vote. Until that happens, we can't afford to pick "the best choice", we have to pick "the best choice that actually has a chance". Even if it's not really the best choice. Very happy to have gone out and voted early last week. We need the blue wave. Once the Republican party is thoroughly stomped into the ground and made completely unviable can we focus on a truly liberal third party, but honestly we probably have a better chance of slowly moving the Dems left than we do a third party taking over. It may not happen in my lifespan but I'd rather see progress than regression.
Once the Republican party is thoroughly stomped into the ground and made completely unviable can we focus on a truly liberal third party
The Democrats will never allow that to happen. Nancy Pelosi Says U.S. 'Needs a Strong Republican Party'
but honestly we probably have a better chance of slowly moving the Dems left than we do a third party taking over
Liberals said that shit in 2016 and again in 2020 and the Democrats have since only moved to the right. They've outflanked the GOP on the border and are actively supporting a genocide.
Ok, what is your strategy then? I don't disagree that some prominent Democrats aren't as liberal as we like, but Nancy Pelosi isn't a government official anymore. As the old guard gets replaced, the hope is that we bring in more and more liberal people over time. Voting third party is ineffective no matter how you look at it, at least not in the Presidential election. If third parties want any hope of taking over they need to start small and win local and state positions rather than just trying to start at the top. Another comment here said the Green Party has 200 elected positions of like 50000+. That's nowhere near enough influence on the ground to win a Presidential race.
Voting third party - waste your vote. Your vote means nothing. There is no chance that a third party wins a Presidential election and to think otherwise is naive. If you're a young voter, voting for the first time, you may think this is a good option. I sure did, and if you vote third party I can't stop you, but in a few election cycles I hope you'll come to the same realization that it's a waste of time. Hopefully your wasted vote doesn't let something as evil as Trump's Presidency happen.
Vote Republican - we definitely, actively, vocally, and happily continue to endorse Israel and genocide and probably stop supporting Ukraine at all and possibly even support Russia directly. We know what side Trump is on. Voting Trump doesn't help the genocide situation at all. Things in the US will go to shit, that's almost a given. Fascism gets worse on the global stage.
Vote Democrat - we know that there is at least conflict among Dems regarding Israel and Palestine. We know that they strongly support Ukraine and oppose Russia. They probably won't stop supplying Israel, but at least there's a chance that something will change. There's also still the subject of control of the Senate, House, and Supreme Court - the President alone can't do everything. It's not a perfect situation, but few things in life are. We do know that things in the US will be much better under Dems.
Unfortunately, it's going to be very very difficult to break the two-party paradigm without ranked choice voting here in the US. Do you see a serious path forward for the US that doesn't involve supporting Israel? I don't. At least not right now. Be serious. The US has too many interests (militarily and economically) in Israel. I'm open to suggestions as long as they are realistic.
As the old guard gets replaced, the hope is that we bring in more and more liberal people over time.
We just today had the poster child of the "new guard" of the democrats coming out and talking about how great it is that nothing happens now. While we are one year into a genocide. While we are further building the wall and enforcing all the border policies that she went down to the border to have a photo op crying at.
Do you think AOC will save anyone? She'll just go back to brunch while the world burns.
Voting third party is ineffective no matter how you look at it, at least not in the Presidential election.
If you can't see further than a single election cycle ahead I guess. Consistently voting for the "lesser evil" will only make the "lesser evil" more evil. If there is a voting bloc that is strong enough to apparently scupper the democrats maybe they should try to appeal to them in any way rather than court the people voting for the "greater evil"?
We are not fucking liberals and the problem is that they are and that historically liberals have allowed fascists to take power. You Ave no idea what you are talking about.
Ok, what is your strategy then?
Nothing less than the revolutionary overthrow of the corrupt, genocidal US state.
As the old guard gets replaced, the hope is that we bring in more and more liberal people over time.
Remind me of the last time that worked.
Voting third party - waste your vote. Your vote means nothing.
Some democracy you've got there, huh?
There is no chance that a third party wins a Presidential election and to think otherwise is naive.
I'm under no illusions that my third party candidate is going to win. The point is to send a message to the Democrats that their unwavering support for genocide is going to cost them votes, maybe even the election. And if it does they have no one but their own genocidal asses to blame.
Vote Republican - we definitely, actively, vocally, and happily continue to endorse Israel and genocide
Who's arming Israel right now? Who has vowed to continue arming Israel?
Grow a spine and stop supporting genocide.
Nothing less than the revolutionary overthrow of the corrupt, genocidal US state.
There's a reason I asked for a serious answer. Good luck with that.
Good luck on voting your way out of fascism. That's really working out well for you, isn't it?
Hell of a lot better than "overthrowing the US regime" would that's for damn sure, especially if Harris wins. Just remember the Jan 6th people wanted to do the same thing, if for different reasons. Look at how well that's going for them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Just
even harder this time, surely that will stop the genocide [that accelerated under and is actively enabled by the very Democratic administration for which you are trying to shame people into voting].Just remember the Jan 6th people wanted to do the same thing, if for different reasons
Communists and fascists are exactly the same. Look out everyone, the true Politics Understander has arrived!
You are a German in 1932, casting a ballot for Hindenburg while smugly thinking "I just saved the Weimar Republic!"
This is an interesting perspective that I haven't thought of or considered.
