Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it's just that kids at like 5 simply can't really conceive of a "social contract" for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little "play" involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the "dominant" shape
It's not super conclusive tbh but it's cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor
I've worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
in fact i think it's borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way?
Honestly I think it's the other view that's reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They're selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren't inherent, just because they're ugly... It's pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They're taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then... Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
don't really think that needs to be beat out of them
I am not saying that. In fact I am saying the opposite "They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late."
Expecting them to behave any different isn't reasonable. Expecting children to learn how to behave without guidance or help is also unreasonable.
Like kids don't need to be yelled at or implicitly threatened with a lack of love to understand that they did something wrong, we treat kids as way dumber than they actually are. but it doesn't follow that we then have to literally and/or metaphorically beat morality into their heads instead of guiding them towards their own understanding
Where did I say anything about any of this? I don't think yelling at children does anything but create trauma. Studies indicate it's basically as bad as beating them.
But calling them inherently selfish and evil little monsters veers way too close to old reactionary rhetoric for it to be comfortable or OK
I don't know a lot about neuroscience, but I know some parts develop later than others. And again: "They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late"
Oh yeah for sure, I think we approach the discourse from opposite ends in some ways and that's where it's at. Like I see a lot of... etherializing? of children. "Oooh they're just inherently pure souls, all bad in this world is only because we don't treat them kinder" which leads to a lot of bad shit too, like unschooling. And it's frustrating after you've worked with them for some years. Watching a child not play with a bucket until another child asks them to pass it to them, to then start an argument, makes you realize they're not divine beings.
Their brains are developing, there's a lot of tools they don't have. I can't count the amount of times two kids have approached me because they're in a fight and they just don't have the toolkit to get out of it. Learning how to say "sorry" and emotionally investing into that sorry isn't something we have from the get go. Until your brain reaches the needed point, you need someone else to step in and guide you along the path.
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Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it's just that kids at like 5 simply can't really conceive of a "social contract" for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little "play" involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the "dominant" shape
It's not super conclusive tbh but it's cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor
I've worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
Honestly I think it's the other view that's reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They're selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren't inherent, just because they're ugly... It's pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They're taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then... Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
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I am not saying that. In fact I am saying the opposite "They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late."
Expecting them to behave any different isn't reasonable. Expecting children to learn how to behave without guidance or help is also unreasonable.
Where did I say anything about any of this? I don't think yelling at children does anything but create trauma. Studies indicate it's basically as bad as beating them.
I don't know a lot about neuroscience, but I know some parts develop later than others. And again: "They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late"
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Oh yeah for sure, I think we approach the discourse from opposite ends in some ways and that's where it's at. Like I see a lot of... etherializing? of children. "Oooh they're just inherently pure souls, all bad in this world is only because we don't treat them kinder" which leads to a lot of bad shit too, like unschooling. And it's frustrating after you've worked with them for some years. Watching a child not play with a bucket until another child asks them to pass it to them, to then start an argument, makes you realize they're not divine beings.
Their brains are developing, there's a lot of tools they don't have. I can't count the amount of times two kids have approached me because they're in a fight and they just don't have the toolkit to get out of it. Learning how to say "sorry" and emotionally investing into that sorry isn't something we have from the get go. Until your brain reaches the needed point, you need someone else to step in and guide you along the path.
Edit: see this comment for more examples
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:yea: me too