https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Ovguv1BSA

It's also available as a podcast for those like me who hate youtube.

I'm maybe about halfway through this interview. Early on, Hudson (a Trotskyist), claims that the Soviets never understood or cared about Marx's Theories of Surplus Value, and that they weren't doing real socialism. He also says that this is behind the real estate crisis in China, but doesn't really elaborate as to why. Wolff sort of agrees with him because to him, it's not socialism unless there's democracy at work. He hasn't mentioned Mondragon yet, although I assume that this is what he means since he's talked about it before, even though Mondragon itself has issues of its own, notably that you have to "buy in" in order to work there. To me it seems more like a shitload of business partners rather than a socialist enterprise. (I think Destiny, forgive me for mentioning him, criticized Wolff regarding Mondragon because Mondragon itself also purchases its materials from capitalist enterprises.) I was also thinking that Wolff's democracy at work has actually been tried here and there. I feel like Orwell of all people describes this in his account of the Spanish Civil War. I felt a little frustrated as I was listening to this because if I had been present at the interview, I would have said that AES countries want to do democracy at work, but can't actually do it yet because they are constantly under siege. I was also thinking of how Chinese people consistently say that their government does a good job and they live in a democracy. Chinese workplaces are not paradise but I suspect that it's generally better to work for capitalists in China than in the USA.

Just some thoughts on this podcast that I wanted to share, in case anyone else wanted to comment.

  • Jabril [none/use name]
    ·
    20 hours ago

    Yeah I'm way passed the point where I would listen to anything either of these men have to say. Hudson posts his work on a Nazi site and Wolff isn't useful once you've read Lenin and realize empowering workers through workplace democracy within capitalism creates a labor aristocracy who gains more from maintaining capitalism than they do from defeating it

  • CleverOleg [he/him]
    ·
    23 hours ago

    Tbh I’ve come to kind of downplay workplace democracy in the transition to socialism, personally. Not to say that collective enterprises in socialism can’t be productive (of course they can). But ultimately do I want to have a vote on how many tons of steel we’re manufacturing this week? I think workers care more about income inequality, work hours, safety, and economic insecurity. If you already have a system that guarantees you a job and your needs like housing and food will be met regardless, that you won’t have to work crazy hours and that you get vacation time… I’m not sure workplace democracy is all that critical of an issue. A lot of the notions of workplace democracy and syndicalism were forged in a time when central planning with computers was something that was difficult to even dream about. And there are some incompatibilities with central planning and workplace democracy under socialism.

    Not that that shouldn’t be a goal of course, just that I think in the socialist stage I don’t know if that’s really a critical issue.