Over half the nation who voted chose for Trump and the other half chose Harris - these people need imperialism and will not give it up until the conditions get so bad due to economic collapse that they aren't getting the benefits of imperialism anymore
As anon says, about half didn't vote. Furthermore, a huge amount of the remaining people are ideologically incoherent, at least as far as politics are concerned because political agency is so removed from their lives that there's not much obvious reason to develop serious investment in it -- even more so for people who mainly care about issues that neither red nor blue cares about. Oh, and there are still minorities (each cycle less) who were scared into voting for Kamala for false promises of self-preservation. You're looking at a bunch of people who blatantly have various kinds of false consciousness and declaring that their informed class consciousness is as imperial lackeys based on their current actions. It makes no sense and opposes the current evidence, it's just revolutionary pessimism because "they're settlers, QED."
Half the people not voting has nothing to do with the material reality that those same people benefit from imperialism and an economic incentive to keep it going. It is a false assumption to say that because they didn't vote, they must have some revolutionary potential just waiting to be activated. They are part of a global labor aristocracy and will not do anything more than fight for the gains that improve their own lives, which come directly from exploiting other people. Until those benefits are removed through economic collapse and are no longer affordable for the ruling class, the labor aristocracy will continue and they will not go out of their way to end that privilege
Your idea that fighting for personal material gains is at odds with fighting against empire was already refuted. There are also other things, like "labor rights", "tenant rights", etc. that aren't part of the metric that a whole lot of people would like if given the opportunity and socialists have the chance to offer those where the other two parties don't even gesture at it.
No it wasn't, it was suggested with no evidence or grounding in reality, things required of a refutation to refute anything. You have a metaphysical idea that because people in the imperial core are workers somehow they will fight against the system they benefit from because on the other side of that fight the wealth distribution would benefit them more. This rejects a century of communist theory. You have taken out all context and material analysis of the condition of those workers and done class reductionism. People like myself who have actually been doing labor and tenant organizing in the US for years know this from experience. People have had the opportunity to organize the whole time, we have had labor and tenant unions for a long time. People join them to get more for themselves and when they do they move on. These are essentially charities and non profits in the modern context, not tools of political power. workers in the US won't be organizing shit until the empire collapses, largely due to it's own weight and not because of any organizing being done. Communists need to be organizing now in preparation for that collapse, but it won't be until things are incredibly dire that the average imperial core resident are counted among us. Until then it's going to be a very small amount of people who actually understand what it means to be a communist and will subscribe to that notion, and even many of those will still be plagued with metaphysical thinking and liberal brain rot
It makes no sense and opposes the current evidence ..
that is par for the course for how this population behaves en masse for the entire time this little place named the United States of America has been around. As far as this 30-something year-old blip
on the radar has got something to say about it I’ll believe in cause for revolutionary optimism when I see it, and I ain’t seen it as long as I’ve been alive, at least
I’ll believe in cause for revolutionary optimism when I see it
Revolutionary optimism is primarily a matter of discipline, you'll not see it until you start practicing it. That said, our project is international, you certainly don't have to look to the burgerlanders to move things forward. Westerners in general tend to suffer from main character syndrome and assume that if "big things" are happening on the world stage it is because of them. I'll not accuse of doing that, but your sentiment is at least a reflection of that mindset. "If the Americans don't do revolution then there is no cause of revolutionary optimism." Why?
Over the last year, especially, it has become abundantly clear that is not the case, and it is the brave fighters of the Resistance in the Middle East, the resurgent independence movements in Africa, the emerging BRICS power block (warts and all) that are the true engine of history. The US and its lackeys have been flailing around and responding to one failure after another, falling back on the same old tricks they learned as a much younger and stronger dog. There's plenty of reasons to be optimistic, if not certain of victory. As for the American/Western left (true left, not squishy libs) - of course they have their role to play in all this. They just might have to accept they're not going to be the heroes of this story. And there's nothing wrong with that.
I have plenty of optimism for the world; do not assume this “main character syndrome” of me. I merely live here, and I have no illusions about what’s coming at home. That’s all.
also lol at any of you who say shit like this cos y’all took the mask off back in 21-22 with everyone else I bet, huh? When’s the last time you thought about COVID? Whatever.
I'm not accusing you of main character syndrome, and I wrote as much in my original comment. But there are parallels in your comments on here, and it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Elsewhere you wrote that Americans don't want revolution, they want imperialism. I tend to agree. Thing is, the American empire is in a deep (and, inshallah irreversible) downfall and they may just not get it. As the endless fount of resources and labor stolen from the Third world start to dry up, Capital will (it's already started, really) squeeze harder at home. This is no reason for optimism on a basic human level, but a very good reason for revolutionary optimism.
I’ll believe in cause for revolutionary optimism when I see it, and I ain’t seen it as long as I’ve been alive, at least
9 million fewer people voted for harris than for biden. at least some of those must be disillusioned libs who are ripe for radicalizing on at least one issue. what is that if not cause for optimism
I'm not saying they'll do it by themselves, there needs to be education campaigns, but you're literally just going off of vibes and excuses to give up instead of seriously considering the concept of class consciousness in the context of our present conditions.
I am not going off of vibes, I have been agitating and organizing wherever I’ve lived in this godforsaken place for like 15 years, Americans don’t fucking want this. They want imperialism. I don’t know how long we’ll have to keep doing this for it to really sink in with people who still think there’s hope beyond collapse of empire for this country but I’m through with it until everyone else wants to catch up.
There are many people who have not had your experience (however much resistance they still meet), so it's worth considering what the difference is between your experience and theirs.
Is there hope?
Over half the nation who voted chose for Trump and the other half chose Harris - these people need imperialism and will not give it up until the conditions get so bad due to economic collapse that they aren't getting the benefits of imperialism anymore
As anon says, about half didn't vote. Furthermore, a huge amount of the remaining people are ideologically incoherent, at least as far as politics are concerned because political agency is so removed from their lives that there's not much obvious reason to develop serious investment in it -- even more so for people who mainly care about issues that neither red nor blue cares about. Oh, and there are still minorities (each cycle less) who were scared into voting for Kamala for false promises of self-preservation. You're looking at a bunch of people who blatantly have various kinds of false consciousness and declaring that their informed class consciousness is as imperial lackeys based on their current actions. It makes no sense and opposes the current evidence, it's just revolutionary pessimism because "they're settlers, QED."
Half the people not voting has nothing to do with the material reality that those same people benefit from imperialism and an economic incentive to keep it going. It is a false assumption to say that because they didn't vote, they must have some revolutionary potential just waiting to be activated. They are part of a global labor aristocracy and will not do anything more than fight for the gains that improve their own lives, which come directly from exploiting other people. Until those benefits are removed through economic collapse and are no longer affordable for the ruling class, the labor aristocracy will continue and they will not go out of their way to end that privilege
https://hexbear.net/comment/5631230
Your idea that fighting for personal material gains is at odds with fighting against empire was already refuted. There are also other things, like "labor rights", "tenant rights", etc. that aren't part of the metric that a whole lot of people would like if given the opportunity and socialists have the chance to offer those where the other two parties don't even gesture at it.
No it wasn't, it was suggested with no evidence or grounding in reality, things required of a refutation to refute anything. You have a metaphysical idea that because people in the imperial core are workers somehow they will fight against the system they benefit from because on the other side of that fight the wealth distribution would benefit them more. This rejects a century of communist theory. You have taken out all context and material analysis of the condition of those workers and done class reductionism. People like myself who have actually been doing labor and tenant organizing in the US for years know this from experience. People have had the opportunity to organize the whole time, we have had labor and tenant unions for a long time. People join them to get more for themselves and when they do they move on. These are essentially charities and non profits in the modern context, not tools of political power. workers in the US won't be organizing shit until the empire collapses, largely due to it's own weight and not because of any organizing being done. Communists need to be organizing now in preparation for that collapse, but it won't be until things are incredibly dire that the average imperial core resident are counted among us. Until then it's going to be a very small amount of people who actually understand what it means to be a communist and will subscribe to that notion, and even many of those will still be plagued with metaphysical thinking and liberal brain rot
that is par for the course for how this population behaves en masse for the entire time this little place named the United States of America has been around. As far as this 30-something year-old blip on the radar has got something to say about it I’ll believe in cause for revolutionary optimism when I see it, and I ain’t seen it as long as I’ve been alive, at least
Revolutionary optimism is primarily a matter of discipline, you'll not see it until you start practicing it. That said, our project is international, you certainly don't have to look to the burgerlanders to move things forward. Westerners in general tend to suffer from main character syndrome and assume that if "big things" are happening on the world stage it is because of them. I'll not accuse of doing that, but your sentiment is at least a reflection of that mindset. "If the Americans don't do revolution then there is no cause of revolutionary optimism." Why?
Over the last year, especially, it has become abundantly clear that is not the case, and it is the brave fighters of the Resistance in the Middle East, the resurgent independence movements in Africa, the emerging BRICS power block (warts and all) that are the true engine of history. The US and its lackeys have been flailing around and responding to one failure after another, falling back on the same old tricks they learned as a much younger and stronger dog. There's plenty of reasons to be optimistic, if not certain of victory. As for the American/Western left (true left, not squishy libs) - of course they have their role to play in all this. They just might have to accept they're not going to be the heroes of this story. And there's nothing wrong with that.
I have plenty of optimism for the world; do not assume this “main character syndrome” of me. I merely live here, and I have no illusions about what’s coming at home. That’s all.
also lol at any of you who say shit like this cos y’all took the mask off back in 21-22 with everyone else I bet, huh? When’s the last time you thought about COVID? Whatever.
I'm not accusing you of main character syndrome, and I wrote as much in my original comment. But there are parallels in your comments on here, and it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Elsewhere you wrote that Americans don't want revolution, they want imperialism. I tend to agree. Thing is, the American empire is in a deep (and, inshallah irreversible) downfall and they may just not get it. As the endless fount of resources and labor stolen from the Third world start to dry up, Capital will (it's already started, really) squeeze harder at home. This is no reason for optimism on a basic human level, but a very good reason for revolutionary optimism.
9 million fewer people voted for harris than for biden. at least some of those must be disillusioned libs who are ripe for radicalizing on at least one issue. what is that if not cause for optimism
Death to America
I'm not saying they'll do it by themselves, there needs to be education campaigns, but you're literally just going off of vibes and excuses to give up instead of seriously considering the concept of class consciousness in the context of our present conditions.
I am not going off of vibes, I have been agitating and organizing wherever I’ve lived in this godforsaken place for like 15 years, Americans don’t fucking want this. They want imperialism. I don’t know how long we’ll have to keep doing this for it to really sink in with people who still think there’s hope beyond collapse of empire for this country but I’m through with it until everyone else wants to catch up.
There are many people who have not had your experience (however much resistance they still meet), so it's worth considering what the difference is between your experience and theirs.
Incorrect. About half of the population didn't vote.
Reread what I said and try again