I'm wondering what our take on this is.
Here's an example on libsky . It reads as genuinely frustrated. However I've seen this same line trotted out by NAFO about Ukraine and how it's impossible it's being directed by the US Government, because people have agency (making it Russian propaganda/"shallow analysis").
I feel like there's a small point being made, obviously not all groups funded by America/American proxies are incapable of acting alone.
These same people cry about things like "russiagate" and foreign influence on our population whenever it does something they don't like.
Yeah it comes off as a very radlib form of concern trolling. So much for "agency"!
The whole "agency" thing is a misnomer (if I'm using that word correctly), it's obvious that people have their own reasons for acting a certain way but america is the only world power with the means and the willingness to ACT and drive events that might've erupted independently towards their own gain
Yeah I think this is the part these libs willfully leave out. It's not that the CIA or whatever is the ultimate puppet master, but that they're willing to use events/fund groups to their own gain. This isn't denying agency, it's just how the USA operates.
People can legitimately support something and it can also be ultimately puppeted by imperialism. Also “denying the agency” of the international mercenaries lmao
Especially with respect to NAFO, it's crazy they think they're not agents of American Imperialism. The most propagandized people on earth
the problem is setting it into a binary, foreign-supported groups can be completely mercenary or just as wholly dedicated with no aid at all, and there's a million shades in the middle based on complicated material and ideological bases that are not easily investigated.
but lacking interviews with actual actors involved which the vast majority of people never get to do, it's easier to put people in one or the other box without too much research, whatever melds best with your existing worldview.
Anyone saying this is the self determination of the Syrian people is a snake or a fool. The country has been illegally occupied, bombed, sanctioned, and flooded with weapons by foreign powers for the last 40 years. I had no particular love for the Baath government but it's extremely clear that Syrians were not allowed to sort their issues out themselves independent of foreign interests. That after two generations of foreign meddling a significant portion of the population aligned with US imperial interests either of their own accord or supported by the US is of no surprise.
And now look, Israel is taking advantage of the situation to grab territory, fascists are in charge, and it seems unlikely that Russia will be forced out, so who even wins here? Only the imperialists that want Syrians chained down and exploited.
People are affected by material conditions, and the USA is very good at manipulating those material conditions from afar. That's all.
'agency' or 'free will' are nonsensical concepts with no significant shared definition. People's actions are ~99% based on their material and social contexts, and those contexts are heavily controlled by central authorities, some of whom are in turn heavily controlled by the USA.
The groups exist regardless of America, but American support ensures that they are able to seize power, and are manipulated in certain directions.
Yeah I agree. However even this gets the response of "you're denying agency!!!" by libs. It's incredibly naive.
In any given society that's in a state of conflict (which is true of all class societies) there will always be groups that hold some position or another, some will be religious regressives, revolutionaries, industrialists, financiers, compradors, etc. The fact that an external power can come and grant one of those groups enormous power is actually the action that denies the people agency. Without that interference, the group that can gain majority support will just naturally have a path to achieving its goals.
I saw someone describe this phenomenon as basically "applying 'therapy speak' to geopolitics", and I don't think they were wrong really.
The groups exist regardless of America,
I mean... Yah, but also when the US is giving them funding, weapons, training, media coverage, and basically recruiting for them... Between the Jakarta Method, Gladio, and their derivatives the USA (and the Billionaires that own it) is the reason many of these groups exist as anything more than some drunk assholes getting in trouble at a local pub. Like at this point, Nazis and their adjacents across the globe are largely a creation of the US with a smattering of help from European powers.
I guess my point is you could still have national bourgeoisie taking a group from bar gang to small militia, and even a considerable one might not quite be able to take power, if not for a small nudge by America. Of course American nudges aren’t usually small, but they don’t necessarily have to be big. They just have to be that final push that takes them over the threshold.
And everything is a sliding scale, and eventually the system of American geopower starts eating its own tail and becoming self-perpetuating. At this point we might have completely moved from the chicken to the egg phase.
On the one hand, yeah that sounds totally reasonable, but on the other hand the US has been running a mass murder program across the globe for 70+ years, non-stop creation of these groups and everything it entails, a global propaganda machine that is nigh inescapable, full invasion into select countries... and yet they're still forced to play whackamole as leftist movements regularly gain traction. Like
to Burkina Faso right now. In a way, I'm kinda optimistic that we're that resilient. And tbh, I kinda suspect that if the US people just pulled their heads out of their butts and realized their duty as citizens of the imperial core to sabotage all these efforts, that there would be a massive global shift very quickly.
My Food Not Bombs group currently exists. It would still exist if it was receiving weapons, funding, intelligence, logistical support, etc. from Russia, but we would also be way funnier and more noteworthy.
Edit: I'm not being snarky. I'm just imagining my Food Not Bombs group being supported by the Russian Federation.
All I know for certain is if the empire, the zionist entity, and their stenographers are all celebrating, it is not my party.
First of all, agency isn't a get out of jail for free card. Fascists need to have their human agency stripped from them and rightfully so. Second of all, "the people of Syria," whatever the hell that means, aren't really celebrating either. Most Syrians seem to just be keeping a low profile and just praying that the new people in charge won't make their lives a living hell. It really has more in common with a medieval warlord and his medieval army pushing out another medieval warlord from the fiefdom with the peasantry hoping that the rampaging army doesn't loot too much of their shit and steal too much of their livestock.
There's some truth to it, often US proxies and/or puppets act in ways that the US doesn't want, but they still follow the overall plan. I'd also ask the libs in particular if they think the same applies to the DPR/LPR and Russia.
Yeah I think I'd agree.
Ironically libs will claim LPR/DPR are incapable of having "agency"
I mean people’s agency can definitely be suppressed, constrained or limited by circumstance. Including geopolitical circumstance.
Ukraine for example has very little option between being the puppet of the US and having large parts of its economy sold off to western companies or having its territory seized by Russia regardless of how much the Ukrainian people thirst for freedom.
assad doesn't have to be a good leader or even particularly loved by syrians for the fall of his government to be the first step in enormous suffering and oppression. it's happened before, it'll happen again. over and over until the end of the empire.
I mean of course it is, but the only question is whether it is true. Whole peoples can be backed by a group and thereby lose agency due to their influence. But more typically it is not whole peoples, it is a subset, and they achieve outsized power due to funda from the outside group. This will have undermined the agency of everyone else.
IMO agency discussions are usually bad faith liberalism trying to avoid discussing the material forcea of geopolitics. Sometimes it is valid, but usually it isn't.
IMO agency discussions are usually bad faith liberalism trying to avoid discussing the material forcea of geopolitics. Sometimes it is valid, but usually it isn't.
Yeah that was my gut feeling too, extremely bad faith.
