Also the guy Nietzsche ghosted because he couldn't stand his antisemitism.
...sorry random association the first existentialist gets maligned all too often. "Talks about nihilism and how it needs to be overcome == nihilist", yeah sure.
I spam redsails but it's such a convenient site. I read The Gay Science as one of my first philosophy books, but I completely turned around because of Losurdo
The antimodernism thing is like the least charitable take one can have on Nietzsche but at least it's not one that's based on his sister's stuff.
Some quick thoughts:
His stance on democracy has to be understood in the context of its days, much less developed than now, and in the Kaiserreich also very much class-based, ruled more by mass psychology than consideration of what actually good politics would be -- on both sides, though I won't deny that the nobles and bourgeois of course needed their wings clipped. At the same time he's very much an elitist in the sense of, erm, personal improvement, sees the need for the individual to transcend the forces acting around them and develop their own path as sublation of everything, contrast that with the political forces in parliament being not even close to that but simple thesis-antithesis with no sign of actually starting to go beyond that and you have an easy case for "Nietzsche simply didn't believe in the process democracy".
To all this he prefers “hierarchy” [Rangordnung]
Is that really the term Anglos use as a translation. "ranking" or even "precedence" might've been a better choice. Honestly just translate it literally: "Rank order". In any case and I won't dwell on it: Nietzsche always describes these rank relations as in flux, not set in stone, and makes fun of tying it to inheritance. I don't see him at odds with Bakunin, here, who will readily bow to the authority of the bootmaker.
At the same time he warned of the dangers of not having such a thing, of insisting on some moral-metaphysical notion of inviolable human equality, and we just recently had the opportunity to see that kind of thing in action: I'm speaking of the masses of people unwilling to bow to the authority of virologists and epidemiologists, going "nu-uh I did my own research", meaning they read some bullshit blog somewhere. Nietzsche himself might've rather thought about the Jacobine terror and stuff.
Overall, when reading Nietzsche I recommend starting with Thus spake Zahatrustra, as a work of philosophical mysticism, get to grips with what it means for the individual mind, and interpret the rest in that light, and specifically consider whether he might not have framed a lot of things very differently had he witnessed Nazi Germany.
A parallel which comes to mind here is Plato, who likely would be similarly at odds with the modern scientific method as Nietzsche is with the democratic process, stressing the importance of intuition as to not de-humanise the process: Are we, as peoples, really engaging in democracy, or do we let a system of mass psychology rule us?
Lastly, my psychological armchair: Was he someone who often felt alone in a crowd? Yeah, probably. Clowns to the left, jokers to the right.
I'm not sure what your intention is with this comment if I'm being honest but it just seems like a broad defense of Nietzsche based in misunderstanding the claims of Losurdo, honestly. Nietzsches obsession with the individual in that way and unwillingness to accept change outside of growing toward his übermensch are a basis for the most anti-communist philosophy.
If I'm honest, I just doubt you've really read Nietzsche as deeply as Losurdo
Oh I certainly haven't read him as deeply as a Nietzsche scholar. OTOH your favourite Nietzsche scholar also isn't the sole authority on Nietzsche. All I'm saying is that I don't share Losurdo's interpretation there.
As to anti-communist -- why would I care, I'm an Anarchist. And yes Kerry Thornley definitely had a point when he said:
[...] Universal Enlightenment [is] a prerequisite to abolition of the State, after which the State will inevitably vanish. Or — that failing — nobody will give a damn.
This is because a stateless society cannot be built on anything but grassroots. And for those grassroots to support proper societal homeostasis, to not removed into or be co-opted by reactionary forces, we need a decent percentage of Übermenschen, people who can analyse the material conditions beyond good and evil, beyond master and slave morals, and share that understanding. Let's say at least one in twenty so that everyone knows one, personally, face to face. Ideally, everyone, but I doubt that'll ever be the case because division of labour.
As to anti-communist -- why would I care, I'm an Anarchist.
Lol. Lmao, even.
I'd think you'd care for practical reasons, at least. Has there ever been an instance of severe persecution of communists without lumping in anarchists as well? I'm seriously asking; I just know that the Red Scare targeted anarchists just as much as communists, but idk if that changed at all over the course of the century.
I'd think that in the practical sphere it's irrelevant what a philosopher says as there's always going to be, say, a sister, which will bend the philosophy to whatever opinion the anti-intellectuals in charge like to hear.
The solution is to have a populace informed enough to not put such people in charge.
As to our own Red Scare over here: Yes the Radikalenerlass also targeted Anarchists but it was abolished before I started shool, or the GDR collapsed. What gets you in trouble nowadays is (as the constitution intended from the start) trying to undermine the free and democratic basic order and I don't do that. I want to radically expand it, in a Kantean sense my politics are those which make it a natural law, see homeostasis.
One more point here, made clearly by Marx, is that understanding how systems shape humans both as individuals and as a society is not de-humanising, it's possibly the most humanising something can be. To be human is to be shaped entirely by your environment and your reactions to it simultaneously, and mass psychology is how we come to have anything remotely psychological to be. It's finding how to live as both a human individual and a human who partakes in, creates, or grows away from mass psychologies. This misunderstanding is exactly Nietzsche hate for the masses. He attempted to understand HIMSELF as not human in this way and create a philosophy around it, while he himself was calling back to individual, anti-change philosophies from the Greeks who did the same (Plato as opposed to Aristotle)
is that understanding how systems shape humans both as individuals and as a society is not de-humanising, it’s possibly the most humanising something can be.
Yes but no. It's dangerous territory, promising both great rewards yet also containing fatal traps: The problem is reducing our own understanding and with that perception of the world to our intellectual understanding. To paint a caricature: When you start to measure mouth angles to figure out whether someone's happy instead of relying on your mirror neurons ("subjective interpretation", cry the Skinnerites). Psychology itself is a very good example here, they legitimately did have to make studies to prove that mood and posture are connected because there were just too many sceptics around with their heads up in their theories, disconnected from their own humanity, their perception of reality having become limited to those theories, not unwilling but unable to see things that don't come with a p value. And that's within psychology itself have a good guess how it's in other disciplines. Not really that relevant in say mathematics, but in economics? As said: Fatal.
Evolution already gave us tools to understand the world. Sure, it also enabled us with rationality, the capacity for science, but to deny that natural understanding is just as bad as shutting off our rationality, it alienates ourselves from our own nature with contains both, in both cases we're incomplete. And for the record: It also provided us with the capacity to mistake social conditioning for actual intuition.
And yes this all is very much the crisis of the millennium but OTOH you shouldn't worry too much evolution already seems to have accounted for it: Skinnerites tend to be unfuckable. That's because they're alienated from their own nature, and that makes you ugly.
To be human is to be shaped entirely by your environment and your reactions to it simultaneously, and mass psychology is how we come to have anything remotely psychological to be.
There's variance in human psychology that makes individual either more or less prone to move with the flock, or look at it critically, it's a necessary condition for societies to be even half-way functional: With only pure flock swimmers we'd be blindly following each other down cliffs, with only pure critics we'd not be a social species in the first place. And a society made of solely flock swimmers would not develop a critical understanding of psychology in the first place. And when I say "variance" here I very much mean nature, not nurture, nurture in this instance only comes into play if the nature happens to be ambivalent.
Only replying to the first paragraph: you're doing the exact thing I'm describing by defining "intellectual" in an individualized way (you say our, but you're defining it as each individual, not understanding its basis in the collective).
I'm not gonna talk any more because you're not really saying much interesting. You're just defining everything as opposites and not seeing the dialectic between it, but then we're getting to an ages old argument that just results in me saying 'read Hegel' and that's it
you’re doing the exact thing I’m describing by defining “intellectual” in an individualized way
Collective understanding is a composite of individual understandings. How the fuck can you make this a contradiction. If (a sufficient number of) individuals make that mistake, then so does the collective. If the collective makes that mistake, then necessarily so do individuals -- or, if they don't, get burned at the stake or banished or ignored or whatever, metaphorically or literally.
read Hegel
I'm not a Hegelian. My theoretical scaffold is generally cybernetics. If you hear me use the term Aufhebung then only because people don't know WTF a metasystem transition is.
There is an inherent contradiction to defining intellectual either as individual or collective, but you're not a Hegelian or a marxist so that's why Im just done with the Convo, it's not interesting because we're not gonna get past that
to defining intellectual either as individual or collective,
Which is not what I'm doing? Both individual and collective capacities for thought are part of the overall system, collective both in the societal and species (evolutionary) sense (see bio-psycho-social model).
but you’re not a Hegelian or a marxist
Cybernetics is one of major tools of the creation of a communist society. That's not me saying that that's the 22nd Congress of the CP of the USSR. The party has decided, comrade, remember your responsibility in the face of democratic centralism! Agree with this random Anarchist!
You act as if cybernetics supersedes basic philosophical presuppositions. Of course I support cybernetic sciences like any other scientific study of systems, but if you think you're doing this independent of an undergirding philosophy you're entirely wrong.
The only difference in the first paragraph is understanding not just that these are parts of a system, but that in practice they define one another directly through their internal contradictions (which are related to each other). Again, you're just an anti-hegelian who thinks you're above defining your own metaphysics.
I also am entirely unconvinced you read either of those articles in their entirety
But I'm not going to convince you here, and my replying is only to you at this point, nobody else will read. So hopefully you read those and try to grasp the underlying philosophy, but I'm out
Ok you pull me back in, read some philosophy of science which is at the basis of your beliefs here. There are such huge assumptions under the ideas of mutual feedback you're representing here. I'm a Systems Engineer, I get the appeal and genuinely base my scientific analysis of socio economics in the ideas that I've developed through that lens. But I also understand the limitations of this because I've read philosophy of science at the most basic level.
You sound like the people who think that math is a formally complete system and base worldviews on it ("everything is math and we can understand all that happens by the math at the quantum levels and even below eventually") without realizing that the experts of the field are completely against this interpretation, and even claim it's disproven. You're doing intuitionism but I don't think you realize it. I do it too, because it's easiest for understanding and useful, but I know it's limited
No system can be both consistent and complete. Worse, all logical statements are based on either paradox, circular reasoning, or axioms not provable from those statements. And I'm not exactly sure whether you meant that kind of intuitionism (the constructive maths kind) or the "don't discount your intuition" kind but, yes, I very much do both. Both tell us that our models are limited, shadows on the cave wall and all (and it is no coincidence that cybernetics itself models that limitation very nicely). Maths tells us by formal proof, intuition and instincts by incessantly insisting that there's a world outside of our heads, something that refuses to vanish even when we cease to believe in it. It's actually quite a feat to shut that whole thing off, and I constantly wonder how people manage to not run into lamp posts all the time.
Lastly, let me share a nasty shower thought (literally, thought of it this morning in the shower): It would be very anti-Hegelian of you to be fundamentally opposed to the sublation of Hegelian dialectics. I even got quite formal with it (though please don't ask me to write it in Greek), identifying sublation with MSTs. Mull about it.
Hegelian dialectics was possibly sublated by marx, but Marx's dialectic is not a dialectic idea but a material world which does exist as a basic assumption that is perfect for any theory which intends to be useful. You cannot sublate the material world itself. But again, I think that you are under the impression that, because you thought of a quick gotcha, that this hasn't already been thought about and written by many scholars before you. Hegel himself saw this gotcha coming
Nah I'm just confused by the way you reacted to me saying "I'm not a Hegelian", apparently completely dismissing cybernetics as a framework even though it can very much express Hegelian thought. It's not like I said "I'm a seventh day adventist and all your arguments shall be in the form of bible quotes or they're invalid" or something like that.
As far as I am concerned, regarding choice of base formalism other people use: Do whatever. If need be I'll find the corresponding isomorphism in what I'm comfortable with, make the argument, project it back into your formalism, then say it out aloud. Coming to think of it when I put it like this my basic model might actually be category theory. Choice of formalism is very much a matter of convenience, and cybernetics happens to be darn convenient for pretty much everything, and has very important insights of its own to contribute.
I'm not read in Hegel and Hegelians so I'm asking you, do they talk about things like branching growth at the penultimate level following MSTs/sublation? It certainly neatly explains e.g. the increase in number in different erm sects both on the left and right following the initial clashes, in the sense that a sublation already exists and is exerting control, is in the process of getting refined as it is refining the old thesis-antithesis pair by deconstructing both.
(And yes I just called "left unity" anti-Hegelian, deal with it :)
I dismissed cybernetics as a way to supplant the need for an underlying philosophy, which is what you were doing at the beginning. You can study cybernetics and believe it's supported by dialectics, but the other way is nonsense. I am in no way dismissing that MST s are another way to talk about dialectical movements, but it is not dealing with the essence of a thing or that thing in itself at the level of philosophy. Hegelians talk about similar things very often, with a lot of the examples on the pages shown being almost identical in form to things Engels pointed out. But saying you're not a Hegelian (we mean dialectician here, you're likely not a marxist either) indicates to me that our disagreement is not at the level of cybernetics, but at the level of what causes such interactions at all
I'd contend that both are actually the same thing. However that's metaphysics which I have a severe dislike for (as in: it's pointless) so maybe that's why I lump it all up in one thing, and in any case, however that may be: You will find neither of them in any model, anywhere. It's the very nature of a model to not be the thing itself.
I'm quite sure you'll say "yes" when I ask whether you understand the difference between map and territory. Is that understanding you have of that, however, on the level of the map, or on the level of the territory?
Those are the actually tough nuts to crack when rooting models, when fishing for axioms to ground things with. To understand the shape of the wall Plato's shadows get cast on, so that you know how the structure of the wall influences their shape, to be a giant iota closer to understanding.
It would, indeed, be a shame if being a Hegelian meant regressing the "know thyself" aspect to far behind what the Stoics had already figured out in spades.
indicates to me that our disagreement is not at the level of cybernetics, but at the level of what causes such interactions at all
Is that important? Is it not more important to identify and characterise interactions? Physicists with different beliefs about the ultimate mechanics of quantum uncertainty get along just fine. Personally, as already alluded to with metaphysics, I'm happy to say "yeah whatever causes that, causes that", I have no need or desire for distinctions beyond the measurable.
Also this is from Rainer Shea https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/08/14/pmc-structure-exposed/
In that same report, Bellingcat includes a statement which confirms that the famous Dmitry Utkin who’s been tied to Russian mercenary activity is not the same Utkin whose (supposed) Nazi tattoo photo has been widely shared by pro-NATO propagandists on social media. Bellingcat states about Prigozhin’s catering company Concord, whose CEO’s name was also Dmitry Utkin: “the Dmitry Valeryevich Utkin in fact appointed as CEO was not the Wagner Group commander. In fact, this Dmitry Utkin was created just a month earlier – through a legal name change (permissible in Russia) of a little-known St. Petersburg resident, eighteen years younger than the original Utkin and having only three months of prior management experience running his own startup company: Alexey Karnaukhov.” Karnaukhov is the alleged neo-Nazi who these propagandists claim is a mercenary commander. In reality, he’s nothing more than a business partner of Prigozhin, a business partner whose role is wholly detached from mercenary activities. And because he looks vaguely similar to the shirtless, scowling man with Nazi tattoos on his shoulders who’s appeared in a viral photo, the Ukrainian disinformation agents have falsely claimed he’s the same person as this man.
Putin's propaganda is that the invasion of Ukraine is to denazify Ukraine. Basically any of his violent action is justified by calling his enemies Nazis and referring to the Soviet war against Nazi Germany (same as when the USA call others terrorists). So if he shot the plane, it's because it had Nazis. Top comment may support this way of thinking.
He is/was despicable as the leader of mercenaries ready to sell their services to any authoritarian regime, but I don't see clear relationship with Nazism, do you have sources? It seems weird to me that a Nazi would accept to work for African juntas for example.
If you think I follow the ideology a specific movement, I'm afraid to tell you I don't. So I'm not sure what the former liberal consensus was. The Wikipedia article (generally consensual, I guess) does mention that a sub-group in particular is: the Rusich unit. It seems ironic that Putin pretends to fight Nazism by using Nazis, unless the goal is that they self-destruction, but I guess that's a fantasy.
Putin never said he sought to annihilate Nazism in general, at least not that I know of. He said that among his goals is to denazify Ukraine, which I believe is true simply because the Ukrainian Nazis are his most hardliners opponents there. He does also crack down on Russian fascists when they become inconvenient to him (like darling of the west Navalny), but I don't think he ever claimed to be an antifascist.
Both can be true at the same time, with the caveat that actual Nazis aren't called Nazis in Russia but nationalists, patriots, suchlike.
But in the end Prigozhin might not have been a Nazi -- in the ideological sense -- but simply a crook. You don't really need a racist or such ideology to build a colonial empire in Africa, plain ole criminal mindset suffices.
Putin's propaganda is that the invasion of Ukraine is to denazify Ukraine.
No that's Biden's propaganda. Putin only mentioned it along with a laundry list of reasons. But besides, Ukraine's ultranationalism is heavily based on Nazism.
Guess you could say the plane was denazified.
Why?
Because Prigozhin was a Nazi.
Are you sure? Never heard that before.
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Also the guy Nietzsche ghosted because he couldn't stand his antisemitism.
...sorry random association the first existentialist gets maligned all too often. "Talks about nihilism and how it needs to be overcome == nihilist", yeah sure.
https://redsails.org/kriegsideologie/ https://redsails.org/losurdo-und-telepolis/
I spam redsails but it's such a convenient site. I read The Gay Science as one of my first philosophy books, but I completely turned around because of Losurdo
The antimodernism thing is like the least charitable take one can have on Nietzsche but at least it's not one that's based on his sister's stuff.
Some quick thoughts:
His stance on democracy has to be understood in the context of its days, much less developed than now, and in the Kaiserreich also very much class-based, ruled more by mass psychology than consideration of what actually good politics would be -- on both sides, though I won't deny that the nobles and bourgeois of course needed their wings clipped. At the same time he's very much an elitist in the sense of, erm, personal improvement, sees the need for the individual to transcend the forces acting around them and develop their own path as sublation of everything, contrast that with the political forces in parliament being not even close to that but simple thesis-antithesis with no sign of actually starting to go beyond that and you have an easy case for "Nietzsche simply didn't believe in the process democracy".
Is that really the term Anglos use as a translation. "ranking" or even "precedence" might've been a better choice. Honestly just translate it literally: "Rank order". In any case and I won't dwell on it: Nietzsche always describes these rank relations as in flux, not set in stone, and makes fun of tying it to inheritance. I don't see him at odds with Bakunin, here, who will readily bow to the authority of the bootmaker.
At the same time he warned of the dangers of not having such a thing, of insisting on some moral-metaphysical notion of inviolable human equality, and we just recently had the opportunity to see that kind of thing in action: I'm speaking of the masses of people unwilling to bow to the authority of virologists and epidemiologists, going "nu-uh I did my own research", meaning they read some bullshit blog somewhere. Nietzsche himself might've rather thought about the Jacobine terror and stuff.
Overall, when reading Nietzsche I recommend starting with Thus spake Zahatrustra, as a work of philosophical mysticism, get to grips with what it means for the individual mind, and interpret the rest in that light, and specifically consider whether he might not have framed a lot of things very differently had he witnessed Nazi Germany.
A parallel which comes to mind here is Plato, who likely would be similarly at odds with the modern scientific method as Nietzsche is with the democratic process, stressing the importance of intuition as to not de-humanise the process: Are we, as peoples, really engaging in democracy, or do we let a system of mass psychology rule us?
Lastly, my psychological armchair: Was he someone who often felt alone in a crowd? Yeah, probably. Clowns to the left, jokers to the right.
I'm not sure what your intention is with this comment if I'm being honest but it just seems like a broad defense of Nietzsche based in misunderstanding the claims of Losurdo, honestly. Nietzsches obsession with the individual in that way and unwillingness to accept change outside of growing toward his übermensch are a basis for the most anti-communist philosophy.
If I'm honest, I just doubt you've really read Nietzsche as deeply as Losurdo
Oh I certainly haven't read him as deeply as a Nietzsche scholar. OTOH your favourite Nietzsche scholar also isn't the sole authority on Nietzsche. All I'm saying is that I don't share Losurdo's interpretation there.
As to anti-communist -- why would I care, I'm an Anarchist. And yes Kerry Thornley definitely had a point when he said:
This is because a stateless society cannot be built on anything but grassroots. And for those grassroots to support proper societal homeostasis, to not removed into or be co-opted by reactionary forces, we need a decent percentage of Übermenschen, people who can analyse the material conditions beyond good and evil, beyond master and slave morals, and share that understanding. Let's say at least one in twenty so that everyone knows one, personally, face to face. Ideally, everyone, but I doubt that'll ever be the case because division of labour.
Lol. Lmao, even.
I'd think you'd care for practical reasons, at least. Has there ever been an instance of severe persecution of communists without lumping in anarchists as well? I'm seriously asking; I just know that the Red Scare targeted anarchists just as much as communists, but idk if that changed at all over the course of the century.
I'd think that in the practical sphere it's irrelevant what a philosopher says as there's always going to be, say, a sister, which will bend the philosophy to whatever opinion the anti-intellectuals in charge like to hear.
The solution is to have a populace informed enough to not put such people in charge.
As to our own Red Scare over here: Yes the Radikalenerlass also targeted Anarchists but it was abolished before I started shool, or the GDR collapsed. What gets you in trouble nowadays is (as the constitution intended from the start) trying to undermine the free and democratic basic order and I don't do that. I want to radically expand it, in a Kantean sense my politics are those which make it a natural law, see homeostasis.
One more point here, made clearly by Marx, is that understanding how systems shape humans both as individuals and as a society is not de-humanising, it's possibly the most humanising something can be. To be human is to be shaped entirely by your environment and your reactions to it simultaneously, and mass psychology is how we come to have anything remotely psychological to be. It's finding how to live as both a human individual and a human who partakes in, creates, or grows away from mass psychologies. This misunderstanding is exactly Nietzsche hate for the masses. He attempted to understand HIMSELF as not human in this way and create a philosophy around it, while he himself was calling back to individual, anti-change philosophies from the Greeks who did the same (Plato as opposed to Aristotle)
Yes but no. It's dangerous territory, promising both great rewards yet also containing fatal traps: The problem is reducing our own understanding and with that perception of the world to our intellectual understanding. To paint a caricature: When you start to measure mouth angles to figure out whether someone's happy instead of relying on your mirror neurons ("subjective interpretation", cry the Skinnerites). Psychology itself is a very good example here, they legitimately did have to make studies to prove that mood and posture are connected because there were just too many sceptics around with their heads up in their theories, disconnected from their own humanity, their perception of reality having become limited to those theories, not unwilling but unable to see things that don't come with a p value. And that's within psychology itself have a good guess how it's in other disciplines. Not really that relevant in say mathematics, but in economics? As said: Fatal.
Evolution already gave us tools to understand the world. Sure, it also enabled us with rationality, the capacity for science, but to deny that natural understanding is just as bad as shutting off our rationality, it alienates ourselves from our own nature with contains both, in both cases we're incomplete. And for the record: It also provided us with the capacity to mistake social conditioning for actual intuition.
And yes this all is very much the crisis of the millennium but OTOH you shouldn't worry too much evolution already seems to have accounted for it: Skinnerites tend to be unfuckable. That's because they're alienated from their own nature, and that makes you ugly.
There's variance in human psychology that makes individual either more or less prone to move with the flock, or look at it critically, it's a necessary condition for societies to be even half-way functional: With only pure flock swimmers we'd be blindly following each other down cliffs, with only pure critics we'd not be a social species in the first place. And a society made of solely flock swimmers would not develop a critical understanding of psychology in the first place. And when I say "variance" here I very much mean nature, not nurture, nurture in this instance only comes into play if the nature happens to be ambivalent.
Only replying to the first paragraph: you're doing the exact thing I'm describing by defining "intellectual" in an individualized way (you say our, but you're defining it as each individual, not understanding its basis in the collective).
I'm not gonna talk any more because you're not really saying much interesting. You're just defining everything as opposites and not seeing the dialectic between it, but then we're getting to an ages old argument that just results in me saying 'read Hegel' and that's it
Collective understanding is a composite of individual understandings. How the fuck can you make this a contradiction. If (a sufficient number of) individuals make that mistake, then so does the collective. If the collective makes that mistake, then necessarily so do individuals -- or, if they don't, get burned at the stake or banished or ignored or whatever, metaphorically or literally.
I'm not a Hegelian. My theoretical scaffold is generally cybernetics. If you hear me use the term Aufhebung then only because people don't know WTF a metasystem transition is.
There is an inherent contradiction to defining intellectual either as individual or collective, but you're not a Hegelian or a marxist so that's why Im just done with the Convo, it's not interesting because we're not gonna get past that
Which is not what I'm doing? Both individual and collective capacities for thought are part of the overall system, collective both in the societal and species (evolutionary) sense (see bio-psycho-social model).
Cybernetics is one of major tools of the creation of a communist society. That's not me saying that that's the 22nd Congress of the CP of the USSR. The party has decided, comrade, remember your responsibility in the face of democratic centralism! Agree with this random Anarchist!
You act as if cybernetics supersedes basic philosophical presuppositions. Of course I support cybernetic sciences like any other scientific study of systems, but if you think you're doing this independent of an undergirding philosophy you're entirely wrong.
The only difference in the first paragraph is understanding not just that these are parts of a system, but that in practice they define one another directly through their internal contradictions (which are related to each other). Again, you're just an anti-hegelian who thinks you're above defining your own metaphysics.
I also am entirely unconvinced you read either of those articles in their entirety
But I'm not going to convince you here, and my replying is only to you at this point, nobody else will read. So hopefully you read those and try to grasp the underlying philosophy, but I'm out
Which is what systems do when they're in mutual feedback, yes.
Ok you pull me back in, read some philosophy of science which is at the basis of your beliefs here. There are such huge assumptions under the ideas of mutual feedback you're representing here. I'm a Systems Engineer, I get the appeal and genuinely base my scientific analysis of socio economics in the ideas that I've developed through that lens. But I also understand the limitations of this because I've read philosophy of science at the most basic level.
You sound like the people who think that math is a formally complete system and base worldviews on it ("everything is math and we can understand all that happens by the math at the quantum levels and even below eventually") without realizing that the experts of the field are completely against this interpretation, and even claim it's disproven. You're doing intuitionism but I don't think you realize it. I do it too, because it's easiest for understanding and useful, but I know it's limited
No system can be both consistent and complete. Worse, all logical statements are based on either paradox, circular reasoning, or axioms not provable from those statements. And I'm not exactly sure whether you meant that kind of intuitionism (the constructive maths kind) or the "don't discount your intuition" kind but, yes, I very much do both. Both tell us that our models are limited, shadows on the cave wall and all (and it is no coincidence that cybernetics itself models that limitation very nicely). Maths tells us by formal proof, intuition and instincts by incessantly insisting that there's a world outside of our heads, something that refuses to vanish even when we cease to believe in it. It's actually quite a feat to shut that whole thing off, and I constantly wonder how people manage to not run into lamp posts all the time.
Lastly, let me share a nasty shower thought (literally, thought of it this morning in the shower): It would be very anti-Hegelian of you to be fundamentally opposed to the sublation of Hegelian dialectics. I even got quite formal with it (though please don't ask me to write it in Greek), identifying sublation with MSTs. Mull about it.
Hegelian dialectics was possibly sublated by marx, but Marx's dialectic is not a dialectic idea but a material world which does exist as a basic assumption that is perfect for any theory which intends to be useful. You cannot sublate the material world itself. But again, I think that you are under the impression that, because you thought of a quick gotcha, that this hasn't already been thought about and written by many scholars before you. Hegel himself saw this gotcha coming
Nah I'm just confused by the way you reacted to me saying "I'm not a Hegelian", apparently completely dismissing cybernetics as a framework even though it can very much express Hegelian thought. It's not like I said "I'm a seventh day adventist and all your arguments shall be in the form of bible quotes or they're invalid" or something like that.
As far as I am concerned, regarding choice of base formalism other people use: Do whatever. If need be I'll find the corresponding isomorphism in what I'm comfortable with, make the argument, project it back into your formalism, then say it out aloud. Coming to think of it when I put it like this my basic model might actually be category theory. Choice of formalism is very much a matter of convenience, and cybernetics happens to be darn convenient for pretty much everything, and has very important insights of its own to contribute.
I'm not read in Hegel and Hegelians so I'm asking you, do they talk about things like branching growth at the penultimate level following MSTs/sublation? It certainly neatly explains e.g. the increase in number in different erm sects both on the left and right following the initial clashes, in the sense that a sublation already exists and is exerting control, is in the process of getting refined as it is refining the old thesis-antithesis pair by deconstructing both.
(And yes I just called "left unity" anti-Hegelian, deal with it :)
I dismissed cybernetics as a way to supplant the need for an underlying philosophy, which is what you were doing at the beginning. You can study cybernetics and believe it's supported by dialectics, but the other way is nonsense. I am in no way dismissing that MST s are another way to talk about dialectical movements, but it is not dealing with the essence of a thing or that thing in itself at the level of philosophy. Hegelians talk about similar things very often, with a lot of the examples on the pages shown being almost identical in form to things Engels pointed out. But saying you're not a Hegelian (we mean dialectician here, you're likely not a marxist either) indicates to me that our disagreement is not at the level of cybernetics, but at the level of what causes such interactions at all
I'd contend that both are actually the same thing. However that's metaphysics which I have a severe dislike for (as in: it's pointless) so maybe that's why I lump it all up in one thing, and in any case, however that may be: You will find neither of them in any model, anywhere. It's the very nature of a model to not be the thing itself.
I'm quite sure you'll say "yes" when I ask whether you understand the difference between map and territory. Is that understanding you have of that, however, on the level of the map, or on the level of the territory?
Those are the actually tough nuts to crack when rooting models, when fishing for axioms to ground things with. To understand the shape of the wall Plato's shadows get cast on, so that you know how the structure of the wall influences their shape, to be a giant iota closer to understanding.
It would, indeed, be a shame if being a Hegelian meant regressing the "know thyself" aspect to far behind what the Stoics had already figured out in spades.
Is that important? Is it not more important to identify and characterise interactions? Physicists with different beliefs about the ultimate mechanics of quantum uncertainty get along just fine. Personally, as already alluded to with metaphysics, I'm happy to say "yeah whatever causes that, causes that", I have no need or desire for distinctions beyond the measurable.
You in bed with Nazis, you’re a Nazi. Don’t matter if you’re a true believer or just grifting.
The guy with nazi tatoos is not Dmitry Utkin, they don't look like the same person.
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1: It's based on one photo that doesn't even look like him, this is how he really looks like, compare the 2 photos:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Dmitry_Utkin_passport_photo_%28cropped%29.jpg/220px-Dmitry_Utkin_passport_photo_%28cropped%29.jpg
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If you could elaborate further on the neopagan stuff that isn't from the photo that would be nice.
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sry I meant neonazi stuff
Also this is from Rainer Shea https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/08/14/pmc-structure-exposed/
In that same report, Bellingcat includes a statement which confirms that the famous Dmitry Utkin who’s been tied to Russian mercenary activity is not the same Utkin whose (supposed) Nazi tattoo photo has been widely shared by pro-NATO propagandists on social media. Bellingcat states about Prigozhin’s catering company Concord, whose CEO’s name was also Dmitry Utkin: “the Dmitry Valeryevich Utkin in fact appointed as CEO was not the Wagner Group commander. In fact, this Dmitry Utkin was created just a month earlier – through a legal name change (permissible in Russia) of a little-known St. Petersburg resident, eighteen years younger than the original Utkin and having only three months of prior management experience running his own startup company: Alexey Karnaukhov.” Karnaukhov is the alleged neo-Nazi who these propagandists claim is a mercenary commander. In reality, he’s nothing more than a business partner of Prigozhin, a business partner whose role is wholly detached from mercenary activities. And because he looks vaguely similar to the shirtless, scowling man with Nazi tattoos on his shoulders who’s appeared in a viral photo, the Ukrainian disinformation agents have falsely claimed he’s the same person as this man.
Bellingcat is RFE-tier, especially after the coup attempt when western media 180'd on wagner.
this was before the coup.
o shit 2020, ty
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It's because he just likes the music of Wagner.
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Putin's propaganda is that the invasion of Ukraine is to denazify Ukraine. Basically any of his violent action is justified by calling his enemies Nazis and referring to the Soviet war against Nazi Germany (same as when the USA call others terrorists). So if he shot the plane, it's because it had Nazis. Top comment may support this way of thinking.
No, it's because Prigozhin was a Nazi. No more complicated than that
He is/was despicable as the leader of mercenaries ready to sell their services to any authoritarian regime, but I don't see clear relationship with Nazism, do you have sources? It seems weird to me that a Nazi would accept to work for African juntas for example.
I find it weird that the former liberal consensus was that Wagner was effectively a Nazi PMC group but now I guess it isn't?
that consensus evaporated as soon as he staged his coup, all the libs lined up behind him immediately
When this is your internal narrative
If you think I follow the ideology a specific movement, I'm afraid to tell you I don't. So I'm not sure what the former liberal consensus was. The Wikipedia article (generally consensual, I guess) does mention that a sub-group in particular is: the Rusich unit. It seems ironic that Putin pretends to fight Nazism by using Nazis, unless the goal is that they self-destruction, but I guess that's a fantasy.
Putin never said he sought to annihilate Nazism in general, at least not that I know of. He said that among his goals is to denazify Ukraine, which I believe is true simply because the Ukrainian Nazis are his most hardliners opponents there. He does also crack down on Russian fascists when they become inconvenient to him (like darling of the west Navalny), but I don't think he ever claimed to be an antifascist.
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Both can be true at the same time, with the caveat that actual Nazis aren't called Nazis in Russia but nationalists, patriots, suchlike.
But in the end Prigozhin might not have been a Nazi -- in the ideological sense -- but simply a crook. You don't really need a racist or such ideology to build a colonial empire in Africa, plain ole criminal mindset suffices.
Gets even better when you realize it's a German writing that
https://hexbear.net/comment/3814795
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No that's Biden's propaganda. Putin only mentioned it along with a laundry list of reasons. But besides, Ukraine's ultranationalism is heavily based on Nazism.
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ugh please go back to