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UPDATE: The transphobe Ada has been defending says they misgender all trans women/NBs on Blahaj who are strangers - Blåhaj Lemmy
lemmy.blahaj.zoneFurther information on the situation with the transphobia: Abigail has
repeatedly misgendered me and defended her choice by saying she chooses to refer
to all people of unknown gender as male. > Hey, Abigail here. I just want people
to know the reason this person got banned is likely because of a deleted comment
not included in that thread. OP called me ~~autistic ~~ mentally unwell for not
liking politics. THAT kind of behavior is not acceptable on lemmy.blahaj.zone,
so I reported the comment and let Ada handle it. Ada tried in good faith to
reason with OP but it was clear they just wanted to fight. So yeah, they got
banned. Ada’s a fantastic lady who’s been great at keeping the trolls at bay. >
Edit: and the bit about me misgendering them is also wrong. Gender didn’t come
into play until after I had left the conversation. English default on the
internet is male for strangers. Source:
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2319669
[https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2319669] WRT the statement that I accused
them of autism for not liking politics, further info is available here:
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2319669
[https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2319669]
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2320815
[https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2320815]
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2321026
[https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2321026]
I agree with you and you're being really correct, but narcissistic is a slur. The origin of the word comes from the disability Narcissistic Personality Disorder. You're obvious talking about neurotypical behaviour, so could you use a different word?
The origin of the word actually comes from the Greek myth, and vastly predates the disorder but I'm going to assume you're just trolling.
Bad take, that's fucking dumb and you know it, the common usage of the term relates to the disorder not the mythological character.
we ban calling people a sch*zo here, why shouldn't we ban calling someone a narcissist?
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Personality disorders are divergences from normal patterns of thought and behaviour. In plenty of cases, they are caused by physical differences in the brain.
They are definitionally neurodivergance, and become disability when the resulting behaviours impact an individual's ability to function normally in society.
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Well, you said that the word narcissist is useful because it helps people identify abusive parents. Which would imply you think there's some connection between being an abuser and having NPD. So the fact that you think a mental disorder is responsible for abuse is an example of that systemic, oppressive otherization that we narcissists experience. I was told by a former friend that I don't deserve to live, because narcissists don't have a shred of humanity. Is that not oppressive otherisation to you?
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I agree that it's not desirable to conflate the two in common usage, but I don't really see how that can be done while continuing to use those specific terms.
What constitutes toxic behaviour is culturally subjective. Many people in the first group would have been considered a part of the second not so long ago.
In this case narcissist is being used as a general insult for someone where we have no indication whether she's a narcissist or not.
we don't ban the word because it could have general use for someone who's actually a narcissist in the same way we don't ban the word schizophrenic except when it's used as an insult
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I find the claim that you used to have a personality disorder dubious, unless you're saying it like Mitch Hedburg said he used to do drugs. Personality disorders are incurable and lifelong. Symptoms are often mitigated with therapy and age, but those are the result of learning to live with a disability, not curing it.
Could you say what personality disorder you used to have?
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Here are the top 4 google results for "Can BPD be cured?":
bridgestorecovery.com/borderline-personality-disorder/can-bpd-be-cured/#:~:text=Borderline%20personality%20disorder%20(BPD)%20cannot,in%20intensity%2C%20or%20entirely%20eliminated.
https://www.verywellmind.com/is-there-a-cure-for-borderline-personality-disorder-425468
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4500179/
https://embarkbh.com/blog/borderline-personality-disorder/ask-a-therapist-can-bpd-be-cured/
Look at it this way: Imagine your leg was amputated and you had to get a prosthetic. With time, and physical therapy, and a leg that matches your needs, you'll eventually be able to walk, run, and jump again. But you'll always rely on the prosthetic leg, and there are some things you'll never be able to do. You might have a leg that's better for soccer and a leg that's better for sprinting, and you'll need to switch legs to keep up with two-legged athletes. And you might end up surpassing two-legged athletes at some things. It's still a disability, you're still disabled, but it's effectively treated. My NPD and your BPD are like that missing leg. We have tools to solve our problems, and we can get really good at using them, but the fact we still need them means we're still disabled. And at the end of the day, no amount of skill is going to help us if a fully abled person decides that today they hate "cripples", or they hate "borderlines", or they hate "narcs".
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Now that we've exhausted the subject of "Is NPD curable", let's focus on your original claims You said you didn't buy that personality disorders are neurodivergence, because they're curable. The two most commonly discussed neurodivergences are ADHD and ASD. Can ADHD and ASD people learn coping mechanisms the same as personality disorders that reduce the symptoms and make them harder to diagnose? Yes, 100%. I have seen testimony after testimony from autistic adults whose psychiatrists said it was hard to diagnose them because they learned masking. Narcissists and borderlines learn masking too, and that's how we're "cured". So what's the difference making NPD not neurodiverse to you?
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Well, since you don't know much about autism, I'll tell you about mine:
As an autistic person with NPD, I can tell you from direct experience they're very similar in terms of how they influence my relationship with society. Autistic people struggle to understand my narcissism, narcissistic people struggle to understand my autism, neurotypical people struggle to understand everything about me, and I get along great with other autistic narcissists, of which there are not many.
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I'm glad I managed to inspire a bit of change. Thank you for your open mindendess
I find your faith in DSM categorizations misplaced. There are lots of places where the DSM fails to have any sort of mechanistic idea of what it labels a disorder (just a diagnostic one) and thereby no real ability to say whether it is curable or not.
don't do this comrade.
Narcissus is a Greek name. Narcissistic is an english word. The ancient greeks did not call anything narcissistic, because the word didn't exist.
The N word comes from Spanish but people who use it aren't speaking spanish, are they?
The English word "narcissistic" existed long before the diagnosis, just like "Sisyphean" exists without an attached disorder (ODD in another timeliness, maybe).
I find your claim dubious, but in any case, the N word existed in english before it became a slur too. But centuries of racial abuse made it into a slur
Why do you think the N word existed in English as anything but a slur? Narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder are not equal. I'm open to changing terminology if it's doing harm, but I think this one needs to be that the term for NPD should likely change. From what I know (and correct me if I'm wrong please), the common usage of "narcissism" has very little to do with NPD, which was coined later and seems almost derogatory in itself (in effect, grouping those with NPD along with the type of asshole commonly called narcissists)
Edit: I have been convinced that this story I was told was wrong about NPD. There doesn't seem to be a usage of narcissism outside of attempted psychological prescription before 1900 in english, and only first in 1899 in German which caused its use in English.
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The common use of narcissism in the vernacular originates with Christopher Lasch's book The Culture Of Narcissism, which put forward the thesis that NPD was becoming more normalised in contemporary america. That book inspired self help guru hacks to sell books which told people that all their problems are caused by people with NPD holding them back and abusing them. People love being told that all their problems are caused by a vulnerable minority that seeks to destroy them, that's how Hitler got into power. So anyway, these books inspired the idea that everyone's abusive parents and bosses and partners are narcissists, and once that happened, more and more people started drawing on this growing linguistic awareness of the word narcissist, generally falling into one of two camps: Either they hate people with NPD and think we're all abusive, or they don't know the history of the word and just repeat it without thinking. And those two groups sound identical when they throw the word about as an insult. When I call out use of the slur, I never know which of the two groups I'm about to have an argument with. Sometimes it's both.
I'm taking you in good faith here, despite being warned that you're a possible "wrecker". I have been convinced that my post (where I tried to make clear that I could easily be wrong) was incorrect about the origins in english.
I think what we're really getting at here is a difference between some of what constitutes a psychology which is deserving of protection from incorrect associations with acute attributes found in broader populations. The R word clearly describes something which cannot be described as "traits everyone has but this person has more of it" but is instead taking a broad and incorrect category and using it to demean both the target and those who are neuro-atypical. With Narcissism, it seems that those in favor of using the word broadly are really then taking a stand that NPD exists as just an extreme of the scale of narcissism and is, therefore, to be less protected. I am unconvinced of this argument, or at least not convinced that, even if it were true, the word "narcissism" is really necessary outside of medical contexts. I think this is unpopular on hexbear based on the posts I've seen, but I'm fine with stopping using the word outside of describing possible the specific psychology.
I think an interesting thing to consider though, which doesn't discount this argument, is the social situation which leads to the commonly used terms. Anxiety was a term used broadly to describe a spectrum of anxious traits in the middle of the last century and was for the first time made primarily psychological instead of sociological. The same can be said of despression in recent years. I think that narcissism as a psychological disorder likely also has a base in liberal capitalism which has only gotten more acute, and it may be less widespread and blamed on failures of society once we move on from this terrible ideological base
Your point about anxiety reminded me of the term "hysteria". It comes from the Greek word for uterus, because old timey psychologists were deeply misogynist. Despite a lot of non-sexist use during the years in which I grew up, it's now said very rarely, and I think the sexism is a component. It's gone the way I wish "narcissism" would go.
Speaking of origins, I'm reminded of the fact that Narcissus, the original narcissist, died because he was a narcissist. He couldn't drink a sip of water right in front of his face because he was so obsessed with his self-image. When your brain works so badly that you die, I call that a mental disability. Maybe all the people saying it's not a disability because it comes from Greek should learn more Greek.
This is a simple version of the "if it affects your life" argument for defining disorders, and I think all would agree that someone so narcissistic that it would kill them have a situation which must be treated much more seriously than someone who is just self-centered in a way that makes them a successful asshole (I would place many successful businesspeople in this category). These are of course fluid, and I think describing them as self-centered and lacking empathy is fine enough to avoid utilizing a word I've been convinced is unnecessary and possibly ableist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/removed#Etymology_and_history
This says first use in english was 1574, first derogatory use was 1775
The separation of 'derogatory' and 'patronizing' as your link shows is not a difference in it being a slur or not, but a difference in social understanding of the word. It was always a slur
edit: I say this not as a disagreement about the term narcissism, but that it's comparison to the N word seems unfounded to me and not related, maybe even downplaying the relative harm of the N word.
That's an interesting thing. Most people are biased to think that everyone else sees things the same way they do. If Adam says pears are just as tasty as apples, and Bob thinks pears taste like shit, then Bob will jumpt to the conclusion that Adam thinks apples taste bad. Because Bob is incapable of imagining that Adam disagrees with Bob on the taste of pears. Whichever is the more deeply held belief is the one projected onto the one drawing the equation. If I say the N word and the other N word have a single thing in common, then I must be making light of racism, because people believe I must agree with their disdain for narcissists more strongly than they believe I must agree with their progressive views on race. Perhaps because they hold the disdain for narcissists more closely.
I actually do think the racial N word is a whole world more offensive and more serious than the other N word. I was just drawing a single point of similarity: They both have an older, non-bigoted root in another language. And I was just using that single point of similarity to attack a bigot's argument. But it's interesting how most people will turn a single point of similarity into a sweeping statement.
Marxism as a framework already answers many of these questions sufficiently for me by taking the social whole always into account as relativity van ABSOLUTE relativity. That's why I describe it as harm, not as some inherent good or bad outside of the social structure of its use. And I think it's relatively much more harmful to black people to be called the N word than to those with NPD being called the other n word (considering the ways that oppression occurs to such groups being actuele different). That is not an excuse to use the word tho
An English word that existed long before anyone was ever diagnosed with NPD. I'm very sorry for your diagnosis but trying to make an entire existing word unusable for everyone else is kinda the definition of narcissistic also.
X to doubt on your claim there, but why does that matter? The N word and the R word existed before they were slurs too. Are you going to apply the same logic there or do you have a unique hatred for pwNPD?
You doubt that a word meaning "like Narcissus" was used to describe behaviour similar to the popular thousands of years old mythological figure, before modern psychological science used it to describe a personality disorder?
Yes. I'm also going to doubt that anybody in this thread was speaking Greek when they used the word narcissist, given that all these comments are in english.
English mugs other languages and their associated grammatical rules all the time, especially Greek and Latin, and especially especially words related to mythological figures, like Herculean, Titanic or indeed, Narcissistic.
English isn't a person, it's a language. The root word narcissism was pulled into english by people. Those people were late 19th century psychologists.
And since it has become a part of general usage English
It was put into general use by a book which claimed comtemporary america was normalising NPD, and later by self help books selling the old Hitler special - all your problems are caused by a vulnerable minority and please give me money
Just fyi, your posts in this thread are getting passed around on chan sites and are getting dozens of (You)s, I didn't start it. Don't try to delete they were using archive links and screenshots.
It's absolutely deserved. You're talking about a term for an aggressive personality that is sometimes related to a DSM classification that's a lot closer to psychopathy than, say, autism or schizophrenia when it comes to carrying a stigma, having symptoms which interfere with life & socializing.
really showing self-awareness when you say
while gloating about the harassment this user is going to receive from 4chan. classy.
Eh, I don't mind being 4chan's "lolcow" or whatever other ableist bullshit they've invented this week if it means I'm making radical queer identities more visible and making more common queer identities seem more normal. I mean, Trump singlehandedly normalised fascism in the US by being such a fascist clown. Maybe I could go a little way to being the opposite of that. Let them parade my identity around in front of everyone, that's what we did ourselves at Stonewall and we ought to be doing it more often.
nah fuck that. I'm bullying 4chan weirdos any day of the week and once I've got some good material this is going in the dunk tank for the rest of hexbear to dogpile. fascists can get fucked.
You're not getting any good material. This is like saying you should ban the phrase "stay mad" over the existence of people with diagnosed anger management problems. Hexbear already dunked on the person you're replying to for this. This is just round 2 on a bunch of obscure chans, none of which are your beloved Trumpists.
lmao you just gave it to me
By all means, cry about this in public. Demand recompense for the narcissistic injury
lmao whatever you say cracker
They're making fun of you for being an obvious wrecker with zero self awareness and trying to get people to stop using a word - (this is my addition) when it would be better to redefine narcissistic personality disorder. Just like histrionic is deprecated
Not 4chan
Not 4chan lol
I like how you think people being made fun of online for bad takes now constitutes the same kind of difficult experience autistic and schizophrenic people have with socializing lmao. The new Chapo crowd isn't worth a damn.
ahh yes 4chan, famous for it's restraint. lol it's just some light ribbing. haha no one gets hurt.
also dodging responsibility is
It's not on 4chan though
They're absolutely correct that hexbear is taken over by narcissistic wrecker radlibs and seeing the site almost move into banning "the n-word" (funny because it would be exactly like banning "cracker" like it's the real n word) is just the cherry on top for them
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Doesn't narcissism predate NPD through the story of Echo and Narcissus? Or through the works of people like Freud? Or is this a joke I'm just not picking up on?
Suppose a white skinned american who doesn't speak fluent spanish were to call a black person "negro". When confronted about their obvious racism, they defend their language with "I'm just speaking spanish, and it's not racist in spanish". This is obviously a cope and the person is obviously a racist. While the original origin of the word may be from spanish, the word has passed into english through racialised use. Any use in english by a non spanish speaker must therefore be assumed to be racial.
While the word "Narcissus" has its original origins as a Greek name, the separate but related word "narcissistic" was coined by english speaking psychologists, and it passed into common english vernacular through Christopher Lasch's book The Culture of Narcissism, which presented the thesis that narcissistic personality disorder was becoming more common in comptemporary america. Given that most common use of the word narcissistic is derived from the cultural impacts of this book, it's safe to associate any use of the term in common discourse with the disorder. Especially since while 50% of the users of the word will respond like you did, the other 50% will respond with "Yes, I was talking about NPD because narcissists deserve to be hated for their disorder".
But no one's pretending to speak Greek or any other language. The word has a common non-technical definition in English and that's what people usually mean when using it.
I don't get what you're saying, does the origin of a word determine how it should be used or not? Because originally, negro was the accepted term used for black people (in English ofc) before it became a slur. A more relevant example would be the word "moron" - even though it was originally a formal diagnosis, nobody who uses the word nowadays is thinking about psychology.
Or what about the R word? It originates as simply meaning "slow". Yet people used it with so much hatred for intellectual disability, it's deeply looked down on now. And if you use it outside of specific technical contexts to talk about slowness in general, you get some very funny looks. I think we need more funny looks towards people who describe neurotypicals as narcissistic to insult them.
Well we can both type out narcissist, but not the r word and that says enough on its own. I don't think people are referring to NPD or even psychiatry in general when they say narcissist though I see what you mean. I dunno what word could replace it though... braggart? Egoist? Uh... Selfist?
Actually I'd prefer if non narcissists didn't type it out when speaking outside a medical context. I'm allowed to say it because I'm a narcissist and I have a full understanding of the issues and aren't oppressing myself by using it. But a neurotypical cannot have the lived experience of ableist discrimination against pwNPD, and so I'd prefer they use the term pwNPD. It has fewer letters too. When I see a neurotypical calling us narcissists, it feels like when a neurotypical calls me an autist.
is this a bit
Wouldn't choosing to maintain the fake sense of status that running an online community creates instead of deleting it because of the harm it does or will do definitionally narcissistic? Or is there a requirement here for such actions to be a lifelong pattern?
i would just change it to self-centered. this is an online topic that’s not worth the argument and also narcissism unfortunately does have lightly ableist connotations now since the word has now been medicalized
i think calling people narcissists is kind of a
ism in general and should be abandoned entirely for that reason when as you said 'self-centred' accomplishes the same aims.
Narcissists are only 1% of the population, yet we see this behaviour from anyone who owns a large platform. Unless you want to present the thesis that people with NPD are privileged because we own all the social media sites, we must conclude that this pattern of behaviour is common to neurotypicals as well.
narcissism doesn't have to be disruptive enough of a persons' life to be a disorder diagnosis. Should we start calling anxious feelings something else because some people have severe anxiety that we label a disorder? petty narcissism isn't the same as NPD and this is the first time i've seen someone try to equate the two.
I'm not really against moving off the word I just feel a bit odd about it. Like you point out.
I think with anxiety there's a small difference in that it's never used perjoratively. Whereas narcissism is. But I agree with you that if anxiety can be used descriptively for a type of behaviour without meeting the standards for it being a disorder narcisisstic behaviour can be the same thing without meeting the standard.
In the same way anxiety could also be replace with "uncomfortable" or "scared" but this would not be as strong in tone, not really describing the seriousness of the emotion. In this same way narcissism shares that.
Again though, not really a hill I'd die on or anything. It is certainly overused for even incredibly minor things at times.
Well, slowness doesn't have to be severe enough to be considered intellectual disability, but the R word is still a slur. And tan skin doesn't have to be dark enough to cause racial prejudice, but the N word is still a slur. It seems that from our pre-existing examples, the answer is that if people are going to use "narcissist" as a pejorative it's a slur
Again how is anxious not a slur or at least appropriative in your definition, seeing that it follows a very similar pattern of standard use followed by use in medical settings
Because it doesn't have a pattern of pejorative use. A slur is created when a word is consistently used to express hatred. Hatred of anxiety sufferrers is much less than that of narcissists. It's largely confined to jokes about people being "triggered". Whereas people wish death on narcissists with regularity.
By analogy, there is a reason that megalomaniac are more likely to be corporate ghouls or sociopaths are more likely to be cops, there is an element of self-selection.
Nah I think it's moreso the use of the word, but I've only ever known of it by that term; I'm not sure what other label would exist for it.
Well the word for self-interested behaviour is "selfish"
or egocentric
Egocentrism is something else. You're probably thinking of egotistical.
Egocentrists don't necessarily hold themselves in high regard, they just have a bias towards interpreting things as being about them. The most self-loathing person I know is highly egocentric.
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