Not the person above but dehumanizing enemies is unnecessary unless your essential message is hate and genocide. Fascists aren’t monsters from another dimension, they are regular-ass people. That’s part of what makes it so fucked up. My leftism is bound up with humanism and I don’t want to lose my humanity in order to save humanity.
I understand your viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with that humane approach, but I'd be a hypocrite if I pretended that spoke to me, it honestly doesn't
I'm genuinely not interested in humanizing fascists, the various plans people like that have for people like me prevents me from taking a proposition like that seriously
Fascists in power and in the streets might as well be "monsters from another dimension" for the effect they have on my life and the people I care about, I can't afford to subscribe to any philosophy that could potentially diminish that crucial recognition
I think we agree on the important part, fascists have to be taken seriously. I don't endorse kid gloves in dealing with fascists. I just feel that calling them maggots is thought-terminating, it is a crude imitation of the fascists' own language, it does not actually do anything except to encourage fascist-like thought patterns even if nominally leftist. Fascists provide enough material to prove themselves vile; we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization on the basis of "free speech" or whatever usual nonsense works to get liberals to defend them since after all, through liberal eyes, all ideology is sacred, only action can be immoral.
In general, it is a choice and definite strategy to dehumanize people. There is no dichotomy of humanize or dehumanize. They continuously dehumanize themselves through their ideology, it is sufficient to point to the ideology and let it speak for itself.
I'm sorry but that's basically a dedux of respectability politics, I'm really not interested in even accepting a debate framework like that because it's fundamentally a pre-compromised position, since your opponent will always define what is and isn't respectable, hence your worry of "we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization"
Fascists also did not invent the concept of political insults or caricatures, and my use of insults sends a signal to lurking fash in this online space (and they are lurking) the same way a baseball bat in the hands of a bartender sends a signal to any fash scouting for potential friendly gathering locations
And most importantly dehumanization of enemies alone is not the basis of fascist language, instead it's the racialization of enemies thru class collaboration that defines the fascist lexicon
If I wanted to "imitate" fascist language, I'd be using racial slurs instead of just a figurative comparison to insects
your opponent will always define what is and isn't respectable, hence your worry of "we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization"
This is a really good point. I shouldn't have put so much emphasis on perception in the last comment.
Racialization is a more succinct term for what I don't want. While calling fascists maggots is not strictly a form of racialization (I don't think it is logically possible for an oppressor to be racialized), again it uses similar thought patterns, reduction of humans to some essential identity, on which basis to exterminate that race/group. I don't think this is a way of thought that should be encouraged. Fascists should be fought as the horrible people they are, not as caricatures, because that actually dilutes the reality of fascism. The idea more and more takes hold that fascist ideology is a result of a flawed brain, and not a problem with humanity more generally.
uses similar thought patterns, reduction of humans to some essential identity, on which basis to exterminate that race/group
no, it quite literally doesn't. fascists can renounce their beliefs and all of my ire falls away. I cannot renounce being trans or brown -- these are actually essential qualities. ideologies are not essential.
It is not bad faith to refuse to use hateful language. I don’t want to be hateful, and using terminology and manners of speech of the people who I oppose doesn’t sit right with me. And on a practical level I don’t think it helps the leftist cause in any way, more likely hurts it.
The fact you recognize that fascists could renounce their beliefs, to me implies you don’t truly view them as maggots, which is what I meant above.
fascist-like thought patterns even if nominally leftist
sorry, this is where you lost me. refusing to recognize the humanity of the people who wish to wipe me from the face of the earth is using fascist-like thought patterns? no, it's recognizing them as enemies who want me dead -- my only position on them is renounce your beliefs and stop attempting to build fascism or accept your death. this position cannot be equated with the fascist thought patterns because literally the only thing you have to do to prevent your death is walk away from fascism. I cannot walk away -- they wish me dead for who I am, my actual essence.
Look I agree with much of what you said but I also think you missed my point. I’m not asking for you to be nicer to the fascists or to show mercy. I’m not “clutching my pearls” as someone else accused me of, because I’m not defending the fascists. I get it because most leftists have been oppressed/bullied, and sometimes it feels good to flip it around for once. I’m not interested in policing the emotions of hurt people so I’ll probably stop engaging at this point.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree i dont think acknowledging their fundamental lack of humanity is "using their own manner of speech" I think it's pretty critical to understand thay what we're up against doesn't have what you would consider motivations and goals that align or even make sense in a broader society but maybe thats just me giving humans too much credit.
Not the person above but dehumanizing enemies is unnecessary unless your essential message is hate and genocide. Fascists aren’t monsters from another dimension, they are regular-ass people. That’s part of what makes it so fucked up. My leftism is bound up with humanism and I don’t want to lose my humanity in order to save humanity.
Edit: misgender corrected
I understand your viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with that humane approach, but I'd be a hypocrite if I pretended that spoke to me, it honestly doesn't
I'm genuinely not interested in humanizing fascists, the various plans people like that have for people like me prevents me from taking a proposition like that seriously
Fascists in power and in the streets might as well be "monsters from another dimension" for the effect they have on my life and the people I care about, I can't afford to subscribe to any philosophy that could potentially diminish that crucial recognition
I think we agree on the important part, fascists have to be taken seriously. I don't endorse kid gloves in dealing with fascists. I just feel that calling them maggots is thought-terminating, it is a crude imitation of the fascists' own language, it does not actually do anything except to encourage fascist-like thought patterns even if nominally leftist. Fascists provide enough material to prove themselves vile; we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization on the basis of "free speech" or whatever usual nonsense works to get liberals to defend them since after all, through liberal eyes, all ideology is sacred, only action can be immoral.
In general, it is a choice and definite strategy to dehumanize people. There is no dichotomy of humanize or dehumanize. They continuously dehumanize themselves through their ideology, it is sufficient to point to the ideology and let it speak for itself.
I'm sorry but that's basically a dedux of respectability politics, I'm really not interested in even accepting a debate framework like that because it's fundamentally a pre-compromised position, since your opponent will always define what is and isn't respectable, hence your worry of "we don't need to hand them any possible claim of victimization"
Fascists also did not invent the concept of political insults or caricatures, and my use of insults sends a signal to lurking fash in this online space (and they are lurking) the same way a baseball bat in the hands of a bartender sends a signal to any fash scouting for potential friendly gathering locations
And most importantly dehumanization of enemies alone is not the basis of fascist language, instead it's the racialization of enemies thru class collaboration that defines the fascist lexicon
If I wanted to "imitate" fascist language, I'd be using racial slurs instead of just a figurative comparison to insects
This is a really good point. I shouldn't have put so much emphasis on perception in the last comment.
Racialization is a more succinct term for what I don't want. While calling fascists maggots is not strictly a form of racialization (I don't think it is logically possible for an oppressor to be racialized), again it uses similar thought patterns, reduction of humans to some essential identity, on which basis to exterminate that race/group. I don't think this is a way of thought that should be encouraged. Fascists should be fought as the horrible people they are, not as caricatures, because that actually dilutes the reality of fascism. The idea more and more takes hold that fascist ideology is a result of a flawed brain, and not a problem with humanity more generally.
no, it quite literally doesn't. fascists can renounce their beliefs and all of my ire falls away. I cannot renounce being trans or brown -- these are actually essential qualities. ideologies are not essential.
Fascists as humans can renounce their beliefs. As maggots they cannot.
I'm not sure how to read this but bad faith and my only response is what I already said.
It is not bad faith to refuse to use hateful language. I don’t want to be hateful, and using terminology and manners of speech of the people who I oppose doesn’t sit right with me. And on a practical level I don’t think it helps the leftist cause in any way, more likely hurts it.
The fact you recognize that fascists could renounce their beliefs, to me implies you don’t truly view them as maggots, which is what I meant above.
sorry, this is where you lost me. refusing to recognize the humanity of the people who wish to wipe me from the face of the earth is using fascist-like thought patterns? no, it's recognizing them as enemies who want me dead -- my only position on them is renounce your beliefs and stop attempting to build fascism or accept your death. this position cannot be equated with the fascist thought patterns because literally the only thing you have to do to prevent your death is walk away from fascism. I cannot walk away -- they wish me dead for who I am, my actual essence.
Look I agree with much of what you said but I also think you missed my point. I’m not asking for you to be nicer to the fascists or to show mercy. I’m not “clutching my pearls” as someone else accused me of, because I’m not defending the fascists. I get it because most leftists have been oppressed/bullied, and sometimes it feels good to flip it around for once. I’m not interested in policing the emotions of hurt people so I’ll probably stop engaging at this point.
I'm not advocating genocide but I do hate them.
Why shouldn't I.
Can we please not do the "we have to respect the fascists humanity" here.
They've all posted a Facebook meme about shooting Trans people in the time you clutched your pearls.
I never said we need to respect the fascists or even be nice to them.
You can be mean to fascists without using their own manner of speech.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree i dont think acknowledging their fundamental lack of humanity is "using their own manner of speech" I think it's pretty critical to understand thay what we're up against doesn't have what you would consider motivations and goals that align or even make sense in a broader society but maybe thats just me giving humans too much credit.
If the fascists see others as bugs for existing, I will do the same to them