in a way, but the main point is that the bourgeoisie has its tools within bourgeois democracy and it's gonna use them to jeopardize every socialist effort
So you're saying Democratic socialism is flawed because it still allows elections, which are by nature corruptable?
no, cuba has elections, and is actually more inclusive than america in that sense
the point is you can't vote the bourgeoisie out of power because they simply won't let you. they will use their massive economic power to shut you down, in whatever ways said economic power can be used, including, as a last resort, to fund a violent reaction (through the army, paramilitary forces, or otherwise)
edit: oh, nvm, you mean democratic socialism not as a way to achieve socialism, but to run it? if that's the case then no socialist i've met has any issue with democracy at all, in fact most of us (at least among marxists) consider every socialist country to be more democratic than any capitalist one. we have a problem with liberal democracy, which we think is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie in disguise
you mean democratic socialism not as a way to achieve socialism, but to run it?
Yes, this! Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough. Good to know though. I'm still researching socialism so there's a lot I don't quite understand - I grew up religious conservative and have only been leftwing for the last few years. Definitely leaning hard into socialism the more I learn though. US voting is goddamn bullshit though with our archaic electoral college, gerrymandering, and the legal bribing we call "lobbying".
No, socialist states hold elections. The problem isn't democracy, it's the bourgeois control of "democratic" mechanisms in liberal society, which isn't "corruption" so much as the explicit intention of the design (why is there a Senate?).
Democratic Socialism is flawed because it attempts to enact change under an economic dictatorship, the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie. They hold all the factories, all the gun makers, all the money flow, all the software and telecommunications and electricity and water.
And so in order to enact Socialism you need to take those things away from the Bourgeoisie. This is what Communists really mean about establishing the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. It's not just political control by the workers, it's economic control. And unfortunately you can't vote your way to that if those who have economic control don't want you to.
So you're saying Democratic socialism is flawed because it still allows elections, which are by nature corruptable?
no, cuba has elections, and is actually more inclusive than america in that sense
the point is you can't vote the bourgeoisie out of power because they simply won't let you. they will use their massive economic power to shut you down, in whatever ways said economic power can be used, including, as a last resort, to fund a violent reaction (through the army, paramilitary forces, or otherwise)
edit: oh, nvm, you mean democratic socialism not as a way to achieve socialism, but to run it? if that's the case then no socialist i've met has any issue with democracy at all, in fact most of us (at least among marxists) consider every socialist country to be more democratic than any capitalist one. we have a problem with liberal democracy, which we think is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie in disguise
Yes, this! Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough. Good to know though. I'm still researching socialism so there's a lot I don't quite understand - I grew up religious conservative and have only been leftwing for the last few years. Definitely leaning hard into socialism the more I learn though. US voting is goddamn bullshit though with our archaic electoral college, gerrymandering, and the legal bribing we call "lobbying".
No, socialist states hold elections. The problem isn't democracy, it's the bourgeois control of "democratic" mechanisms in liberal society, which isn't "corruption" so much as the explicit intention of the design (why is there a Senate?).
Democratic Socialism is flawed because it attempts to enact change under an economic dictatorship, the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie. They hold all the factories, all the gun makers, all the money flow, all the software and telecommunications and electricity and water.
And so in order to enact Socialism you need to take those things away from the Bourgeoisie. This is what Communists really mean about establishing the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. It's not just political control by the workers, it's economic control. And unfortunately you can't vote your way to that if those who have economic control don't want you to.