Ukraine told critics of the pace of its three-month-old counteroffensive to "shut up" on Thursday, the sharpest signal yet of Kyiv's frustration at leaks from Western officials that say its forces are advancing too slowly.
If your goal is to prevent deaths, surrendering would have been the ideal yeah.
Zelenksy tried to surrender to prevent further deaths, and Boris Johnson refused to let that meeting happen because NATO isn't finished using Ukranians as crash test dummies.
If your goal is to prevent deaths, surrendering would have been the ideal yeah.
This has literally never been true in any war ever. Foreign occupations rarely tend to be bloodless and I doubt a Russian one would have been an exception. At no point were any of the peace talks about Ukraine's surrender – only renouncing it's NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Russian troops, as per:
"In the weeks ahead of Johnson's April 9 visit, high-level diplomatic talks held in Belarus and Turkey had failed to yield a diplomatic breakthrough, though reports in mid-March indicated that Russian and Ukrainian delegations "made significant progress" toward a 15-point peace deal that would involve Ukraine renouncing its NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Moscow's troops."
At no point was surrender on the table - that would have likely lead to Zelenksy's detention and execution in the early days of the invasion.
I don't think Zelensky was too keen on capitulating to Vladimir Putin's demands to destroy his country, after sending in GRU hit squads to kill him and his family multiple times at the outset of the war.
Zelenskyy tried to surrender and Boris Johnson stopped him?! Ooooookay… He maaaybe (all “unnamed” sources) expressed an opinion, which the U.K. learnt the hard way, that you cannot negotiate with dictators. There can be no “peace in our time” with dictators hellbent on destruction.
To cast that as “Ukraine was stopped from surrendering” is just obscene … and yet another Kremlin talking point.
which the U.K. learnt the hard way, that you cannot negotiate with dictators. There can be no “peace in our time” with dictators hellbent on destruction.
If the UK is convinced that you can't negotiate with dictators, how does the UK keep entering into arms sales agreements with Saudi Arabia? Do the contracts just appear out of thin air at BAE?
I am referencing to a dictator that is hellbent on invasion of other countries. We had plenty of relations with Russia before they decided to invade Ukraine and they were a dictatorship before. We have plenty of relationships with China now and they are a de facto dictatorship.
The Saudis used their British weapons to bomb Yemen and create one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes in recent memory. The UK sold weapons to Saudi before, during, and after the Saudi involvement in Yemen.
Perhaps Russia should have merely bombed Ukraine to the point of starvation. Then they'd be a good dictatorship that the UK would be happy to carry out business negotiations with.
What’s going on in Yemen is incredibly complicated. I’m not condoning everything Saudi Arabia is doing there, far from it, but to call it out as a good vs evil war is frankly a simpleton view. Saudi is bad there. Everyone is bad there. It’s a huge mess. But I think it’s important to recognise that the Saudis aim is to restore order in a neighbourhood country, to prevent Iranian influence from growing and to suppress violent Islamic fundamentalism.
They did say saudis bad tho, we should give the same nuance we expect from others. I don't suppose the commenter you're replying to supports Saudi arabia, it's just odd that the nuance they're seemingly willing to grant the saudis wont be given to Russia
No, Ukraine has a specific military campaign (the bombardment of Donbas) that he opposes along with the expansion of NATO. He has very clear demands, whatever you think of them.
That was initiated by pro-Russian insurgents and has led to lots of death on both sides. It's not like the opposing forces haven't been bombarding either. It's like if England started attacking the North during the US Civil War because they retaliated against the South attacking them, and of course they both speak English. I'm guessing you also believe in the Russian propaganda line about a genocide happening there, even though there's no proof? It was obviously just an excuse for Russia to get more control over Ukrainian territory after their Russian puppet President got ran out of the country.
Putin had denazification as a demand. That's not super clear at all. His clear demands are Ukraine staying out of NATO, which it was already up for agreeing to do, and surrendering territory, which is obviously the one it doesn't want to do, because no country would want to do that. That's the problem one but hopefully they come to something eventually.
It's bizarre to me that most hexbear users are less anti-war than some protestors and TV journalists that live in Russia itself who want their own country to leave. I agree with you guys on so many other stuff, but I can't get behind supporting the aggressor in a war, especially as they're shelling hospitals and apartment buildings.
The Donbas secessionists want to leave because the Maidan coup started pushing the country towards Ukrainian ethnonationalism, and eastern Ukraine is very Russian. Russia did back them, but Putin did not fabricate a popular opposition to the Maidan government.
Denazification is a pretty clear objective when the entity that you are seeking to denazify has battalions that are openly and explicitly Nazi as part of their doctrine. Purge those units, prosecute former members, ban Nazi hate crimes (like greasing bullets with pig fat) and ban Nazi symbols like Swastikas and Wolfsangles. It's really not difficult, the US military nearly passes that bar and even the German military does (though it has closeted Nazi cliques).
Ya but we're not in a war for our very lives. Hopefully they can get around to doing it after the war. Russia also had a Nazi problem with the Wagner group and a growing antisemitism problem but for some reason you can extend critical support to them but not Ukraine?
I was talking about Russia demanding it, not Ukraine doing it of their own volition. You are genuinely delusional if you think Ukraine is interested in such a thing. The Azov Battalion formed as a paramilitary circa 2014 to spearhead the aggression on Donbas, and since then became an official part of the military, still a couple years before the invasion, along with a few other explicitly Nazi groups. This, along with lionizing Bandera, pushing holodomor shit, and advancing ethnonationalist policy shows a clear trend. In terms of "state adoption of Nazi shit" Ukraine is easily the world leader and has been for some time, even over much worse and more destructive countries like the US.
Wagner is a PMC organization. There are Nazis in it, but it's not a doctrinally Nazi organization nor is it actually part of the Russian government like Azov is Ukraine. Russia likewise isn't pushing fascist hoaxes or ethnonationalist policies (however much we might both dislike Putin's revanchist rhetoric).
What’s going on in Ukraine is incredibly complicated. I’m not condoning everything Russia is doing there, far from it, but to call it out as a good vs evil war is frankly a simpleton view. Russia is bad there. Everyone is bad there. It’s a huge mess. But I think it’s important to recognise that the Russians' aim is to restore order in a neighbourhood country, to prevent American influence from growing and to suppress violent Neo-Nazi extremism.
I think sending a nazi-ish mercenarygroup into the meat grinder against an even more nazi-ish group so that they both wipe each other out (like what happened in Bahkmut) is good actually
I’m not condoning everything Saudi Arabia is doing there, far from it,
but
you girls get annoyed when we're 'inconsistent' (you just misunderstand us on purpose) but you guys are far more inconsistent in the worst ways possible than you even think we are.
Holy shit man just realize you have no ideology or clue, stop talking and educate yourself on what the actual fuck is going on in the world. It would be a far more productive use of your time.
But I think it’s important to recognise that the Saudis aim is to restore order in a neighbourhood country, to prevent Iranian influence from growing and to suppress violent Islamic fundamentalism.
"Restoring order is when you bomb hospitals and exacerbate famines and the more people that die, the more order it is."
The Saudis are committing genocide in Yemen. No ifs, no buts. To claim they have a good reason to be out there doing it is genocide apologia.
“Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”
The news highlights the impact of former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s efforts to stop negotiations, as journalist Branko Marcetic noted on Twitter. The decision to scuttle the deal coincided with Johnson’s April visit to Kyiv, during which he reportedly urged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to break off talks with Russia for two key reasons: Putin cannot be negotiated with, and the West isn’t ready for the war to end.
Foreign Affairs is a Kremlin propaganda outlet now?
Considering there's people in this thread complaining were spreading Russian propaganda by posting a press release FROM UKRAINE I'm starting to think their accusations may not be entirely in good faith.
Or do only people you disagree with require sources, so that way you can keep gleefully believing whatever the fucking and spewing it everywhere you go
Johnson’s April visit to Kyiv, during which he reportedly urged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to break off talks with Russia
Hmm let's look at the source on that: Ukrainska Pravda, a Ukranian language paper headquartered in Kyiv, owned by a Ukranian investment company also headquartered in Kyiv.
You do understand how propaganda works, right? It works by zooming in on molehills until they appear like mountains. So while I wouldn’t rule out that Johnson the Idiot said something unwise to Zelensky government, I also don’t automatically think that it means Zelenski was “forced to not give up”.
I also don’t automatically think that it means Zelenski was “forced to not give up”.
Ukraine negotiates ceasefire.
BJ tells Ukraine to not go through with it.
Ukraine does not go through with it.
Why else would Ukraine have reversed course if not for one of its NATO puppetmasters commanding it to? Either it's that, or BJ making a really impassioned argument for sending a bunch of Ukranians to an early grave and Zelensky fell for it, or Zelensky just changed his mind all on his own and the timing is a pure coincidence.
Okay, but it is literally a propaganda source that is aligned with Ukraine lmao. We know it is propaganda, we are presenting it because even the ukrainian propaganda acknowledges it as factual.
"It's not clear how Zelenskyy himself responded to Johnson's reported push to halt peace talks. On the same day of the British prime minister's arrival in Kyiv, Zelenskyy told the Associated Press in an interview that "no one wants to negotiate with a person or people who tortured this nation."
"It's all understandable," he continued. "And as a man, as a father, I understand this very well."
But, Zelenskyy added, "we don't want to lose opportunities, if we have them, for a diplomatic solution."
Also the only time the word "surrender" shows up is in a quote here where it was the west telling Zelensky to surrender and flee.
If your goal is to prevent deaths, surrendering would have been the ideal yeah.
Zelenksy tried to surrender to prevent further deaths, and Boris Johnson refused to let that meeting happen because NATO isn't finished using Ukranians as crash test dummies.
This has literally never been true in any war ever. Foreign occupations rarely tend to be bloodless and I doubt a Russian one would have been an exception. At no point were any of the peace talks about Ukraine's surrender – only renouncing it's NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Russian troops, as per:
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper
"In the weeks ahead of Johnson's April 9 visit, high-level diplomatic talks held in Belarus and Turkey had failed to yield a diplomatic breakthrough, though reports in mid-March indicated that Russian and Ukrainian delegations "made significant progress" toward a 15-point peace deal that would involve Ukraine renouncing its NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Moscow's troops."
At no point was surrender on the table - that would have likely lead to Zelenksy's detention and execution in the early days of the invasion.
I don't think Zelensky was too keen on capitulating to Vladimir Putin's demands to destroy his country, after sending in GRU hit squads to kill him and his family multiple times at the outset of the war.
Zelenskyy tried to surrender and Boris Johnson stopped him?! Ooooookay… He maaaybe (all “unnamed” sources) expressed an opinion, which the U.K. learnt the hard way, that you cannot negotiate with dictators. There can be no “peace in our time” with dictators hellbent on destruction.
To cast that as “Ukraine was stopped from surrendering” is just obscene … and yet another Kremlin talking point.
If the UK is convinced that you can't negotiate with dictators, how does the UK keep entering into arms sales agreements with Saudi Arabia? Do the contracts just appear out of thin air at BAE?
Sigh.
I am referencing to a dictator that is hellbent on invasion of other countries. We had plenty of relations with Russia before they decided to invade Ukraine and they were a dictatorship before. We have plenty of relationships with China now and they are a de facto dictatorship.
The Saudis used their British weapons to bomb Yemen and create one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes in recent memory. The UK sold weapons to Saudi before, during, and after the Saudi involvement in Yemen.
Perhaps Russia should have merely bombed Ukraine to the point of starvation. Then they'd be a good dictatorship that the UK would be happy to carry out business negotiations with.
Don't be ridiculous
Ukrainians are white
That's only acceptable when it's brown, asian, or south american people who's country you're destroying.
Temporarily white mind you. They will be presented as unwashed asiatic slavic hordes soon enough by the western press, unfortunately.
Such trends and anti-ukranian xenophobia are already strongly devolping in Poland.
What’s going on in Yemen is incredibly complicated. I’m not condoning everything Saudi Arabia is doing there, far from it, but to call it out as a good vs evil war is frankly a simpleton view. Saudi is bad there. Everyone is bad there. It’s a huge mess. But I think it’s important to recognise that the Saudis aim is to restore order in a neighbourhood country, to prevent Iranian influence from growing and to suppress violent Islamic fundamentalism.
When I started reading this thread I really did not expect you to start defending Saudi Arabia to own the tankies ngl
They did say saudis bad tho, we should give the same nuance we expect from others. I don't suppose the commenter you're replying to supports Saudi arabia, it's just odd that the nuance they're seemingly willing to grant the saudis wont be given to Russia
"Restored order" is such a bullshit line
That's basically the same line Russia is using in Ukraine. Just with some added "denazification" buzz words.
No, Ukraine has a specific military campaign (the bombardment of Donbas) that he opposes along with the expansion of NATO. He has very clear demands, whatever you think of them.
That was initiated by pro-Russian insurgents and has led to lots of death on both sides. It's not like the opposing forces haven't been bombarding either. It's like if England started attacking the North during the US Civil War because they retaliated against the South attacking them, and of course they both speak English. I'm guessing you also believe in the Russian propaganda line about a genocide happening there, even though there's no proof? It was obviously just an excuse for Russia to get more control over Ukrainian territory after their Russian puppet President got ran out of the country.
Putin had denazification as a demand. That's not super clear at all. His clear demands are Ukraine staying out of NATO, which it was already up for agreeing to do, and surrendering territory, which is obviously the one it doesn't want to do, because no country would want to do that. That's the problem one but hopefully they come to something eventually.
It's bizarre to me that most hexbear users are less anti-war than some protestors and TV journalists that live in Russia itself who want their own country to leave. I agree with you guys on so many other stuff, but I can't get behind supporting the aggressor in a war, especially as they're shelling hospitals and apartment buildings.
The Donbas secessionists want to leave because the Maidan coup started pushing the country towards Ukrainian ethnonationalism, and eastern Ukraine is very Russian. Russia did back them, but Putin did not fabricate a popular opposition to the Maidan government.
Denazification is a pretty clear objective when the entity that you are seeking to denazify has battalions that are openly and explicitly Nazi as part of their doctrine. Purge those units, prosecute former members, ban Nazi hate crimes (like greasing bullets with pig fat) and ban Nazi symbols like Swastikas and Wolfsangles. It's really not difficult, the US military nearly passes that bar and even the German military does (though it has closeted Nazi cliques).
Ya but we're not in a war for our very lives. Hopefully they can get around to doing it after the war. Russia also had a Nazi problem with the Wagner group and a growing antisemitism problem but for some reason you can extend critical support to them but not Ukraine?
I was talking about Russia demanding it, not Ukraine doing it of their own volition. You are genuinely delusional if you think Ukraine is interested in such a thing. The Azov Battalion formed as a paramilitary circa 2014 to spearhead the aggression on Donbas, and since then became an official part of the military, still a couple years before the invasion, along with a few other explicitly Nazi groups. This, along with lionizing Bandera, pushing holodomor shit, and advancing ethnonationalist policy shows a clear trend. In terms of "state adoption of Nazi shit" Ukraine is easily the world leader and has been for some time, even over much worse and more destructive countries like the US.
Wagner is a PMC organization. There are Nazis in it, but it's not a doctrinally Nazi organization nor is it actually part of the Russian government like Azov is Ukraine. Russia likewise isn't pushing fascist hoaxes or ethnonationalist policies (however much we might both dislike Putin's revanchist rhetoric).
but the saudis are actually commiting genocide, russia isn't
Yea, although I don't really know that much aboit the Yemen conflict. Could you provide me some reading material? Thanks!
What’s going on in Ukraine is incredibly complicated. I’m not condoning everything Russia is doing there, far from it, but to call it out as a good vs evil war is frankly a simpleton view. Russia is bad there. Everyone is bad there. It’s a huge mess. But I think it’s important to recognise that the Russians' aim is to restore order in a neighbourhood country, to prevent American influence from growing and to suppress violent Neo-Nazi extremism.
Every lib's real values: white people invaded=the good guys
Brown/Black people invaded=it's complicated
Ahh that's why Russia used the Wagner group
I think sending a nazi-ish mercenarygroup into the meat grinder against an even more nazi-ish group so that they both wipe each other out (like what happened in Bahkmut) is good actually
Lol, Iran is more moderate than Saudi Arabia and bombing and starving populations is how you create radicals.
And you think somehow the Ukraine situation is cut and dry?
The NYT said that one is simple!
Ahh, well then, if they said so
When it's the US/West doing something there's all this room for 'nuance' but when it is Bad Country it's suddenly clear-cut good vs evil.
Incredible self-own
you girls get annoyed when we're 'inconsistent' (you just misunderstand us on purpose) but you guys are far more inconsistent in the worst ways possible than you even think we are.
Holy shit man just realize you have no ideology or clue, stop talking and educate yourself on what the actual fuck is going on in the world. It would be a far more productive use of your time.
"Restoring order is when you bomb hospitals and exacerbate famines and the more people that die, the more order it is."
The Saudis are committing genocide in Yemen. No ifs, no buts. To claim they have a good reason to be out there doing it is genocide apologia.
the saudis make a desert and call it peace
yeah the saudis are really worried about Islamic fundamentalism
Yemen isn't a country because it isn't white enough for you
I think italicizing it into sigh would look better but whatever
You're not very smart.
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They get their opinions straight from the white house and brussels.
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Foreign Affairs is a Kremlin propaganda outlet now?
Foreign Affairs is certainly propaganda, just not of the Kremlin variety.
Lol exactly, it's the last place you'd expect to find anything challenging the U.S. narrative.
Considering there's people in this thread complaining were spreading Russian propaganda by posting a press release FROM UKRAINE I'm starting to think their accusations may not be entirely in good faith.
What part of this reads as a "surrender" to you?
It's not how I'd characterize it personally, but it's what that other person was referring to.
Ah, all good then.
“Reportedly” means “others report”.
And your sources for your beliefs are where?
Or do only people you disagree with require sources, so that way you can keep gleefully believing whatever the fucking and spewing it everywhere you go
Hmm let's look at the source on that: Ukrainska Pravda, a Ukranian language paper headquartered in Kyiv, owned by a Ukranian investment company also headquartered in Kyiv.
Kremlin propaganda!
Sigh.
You do understand how propaganda works, right? It works by zooming in on molehills until they appear like mountains. So while I wouldn’t rule out that Johnson the Idiot said something unwise to Zelensky government, I also don’t automatically think that it means Zelenski was “forced to not give up”.
Why else would Ukraine have reversed course if not for one of its NATO puppetmasters commanding it to? Either it's that, or BJ making a really impassioned argument for sending a bunch of Ukranians to an early grave and Zelensky fell for it, or Zelensky just changed his mind all on his own and the timing is a pure coincidence.
What leverage exactly do you think Johnson had over Ukraine? He hasn’t even got leverage over his toilet seat.
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Ukraine has the most corrupt state in the world, the UK has a shit load of money.
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Okay, but it is literally a propaganda source that is aligned with Ukraine lmao. We know it is propaganda, we are presenting it because even the ukrainian propaganda acknowledges it as factual.
Heavens to Betsy sigh
Oh fuck lmao, it’s a bot! It all makes sense now
coping, give us a source
I love how you think a bunch of queer marxists are actually FSB agents or smth
Also link to anything in the kremlin saying this?
What the fuck is that shit that I just read.
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https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper
Also the only time the word "surrender" shows up is in a quote here where it was the west telling Zelensky to surrender and flee.
You're fucking capable of more reasoning than that, surely. After all, you have a brain that can think and challenge disagreeing views, right?
You really ought to try more and maybe, just maybe realise you may not be in the right here. But hey, you can always try to justify your views.