Ukraine told critics of the pace of its three-month-old counteroffensive to "shut up" on Thursday, the sharpest signal yet of Kyiv's frustration at leaks from Western officials that say its forces are advancing too slowly.
"My terminally online movement is not full of fascists and useful idiots parroting fascist propaganda because of, uhm, history"
Yes, tell me again about the freikorps while every day I see another hazoid being besties with Nazis, or being a fascist themselves.
I don't know if you're a fascist, I'm currently not interested enough to go checking.
how you call me terminally online
Because you're on Lemmy defending legacy of a pejorative identifier when confronted with the fact that the modern online tankie community has produced a number of fascist-aligned notable persons over the last years, and keeps spreading and regurgitating fascist propaganda because of the common alignment against the West.
The history is important. In this conversation, history is irrelevant. Stop making it about your honor
"Please stop pointing out we're friends with fascists, it hurts our feefees. Don't you know that muh history means I'm very cool and honorable despite being an internet warrior".
You're one step removed from a nationalist. Except you're feeding your insecurity with a different flavour of a myth.
You're not beating the allegations, you're treating this the same way a nationalist would. If you don't see the irrelevance of historical anecdotes here, well, I guess that explains why you're a tankie.
Haz, Maupin, Dore and all their sphere are fascist. One guy literally went through being an "anti-imperialist" tankie to going to Tucker Carlson and talking about how wokeness is destroying West or something. Even in comments here I see tankies gladly buying and spreading Russian bullshit about Ukrainians being Nazis. Or how when I recently mentioned Russia making genocidal policies against trans people, a lot of people from a tankie sub began whataboutisming me about that. The fact that you totally ignored my larger point (tankie community producing fascists), which you apparently know about and "dunk all the time" on. The fact that you tried to deflect from that by bringing up 50-years-old historical anecdotes which are irrelevant to this particular context. It's in the same vein as when Israel tries to deflect from accusation of fascism and apartheid by bringing up antisemitism and Holocaust. Of course, what Israel does is much worse than being a breeding ground for online fascists, but the mechanism of deflection here is similar. Don't try to strawman me on this. No matter which honorable or victimized identity you use, this remains a deflection.
You really need to start using real words for things. You are using "tankie" to describe everything under the sun right now and I literally have no idea what you're saying anymore.
I've actually been extremely consistent with my usage of the term throughout this conversation. The people I'm talking to keep using it for everyone under the sun, that's true. From a member of a third-world communist party 50 years ago to themselves to Joseph Stalin. My focus is currently on the online English-speaking community/ies of the last 5-10 years who would fit the term
Who else would we talk about in a Lemmy conversation about people on Lemmy supporting Russia? I've been telling you the Vietnamese don't matter in this context from the very beginning.
EDIT: I've made myself clear what I was talking about. The context was there, you were the first one to bring up the 20th century people. I could take some responsibility as the term is vague, but too many of you went for the dunks and posturing, making up shit about what I meant on the fly. The problem that truth here is relative and if enough of you decide that is what happened, whatever context I had in mind wouldn't matter. It's easy to be cynical about the whole interaction for both of us. Also good for the ego, as being wrong hurts and we all know it. I'm off to bed, will see if you add something else here later. It wasn't nice to talk to you, bye.
Please learn reading comprehension in regards the article in question. Or to my message. You seem to have trouble understanding at least one of the two
I don't like being lied about. I assume it's you not understanding either what I wrote or the article. Or you just don't care and I'm just feeding a troll
Gaslighting is when someone shows you your own copy and pasted words and then tells you that an article is a relevant reply to your statement.
You're a fucking baby. If you can't engage with something so basic without having a tantrum and pulling reddit debatebro cliches out of a hat then why the fuck are you still here? I told you to act like you gave a shit or shut the fuck up. Why do you refuse both?
This is literally the gaslighter tactic. The moment you call out the behavior you're framed as the unstable one. I think I've made it clear that you're either wrong about the meaning of my words or you're actively lying about them, which I think is the most probable here as you keep being a POS about all of this.
If you think there is a literal one-to-one correlation between the article and my words, you could've shown it to me hours ago. You didn't. I did read the article, it's not there. You keep pushing your bullshit without elaborating, so yeah, you're a troll.
One last try before I block you and go with my day, this is not productive at all.
Gaslighting is when you make someone question their own senses. I quoted your exact words to you.
Stop draping yourself in the cloak of abuse and mental health issues just because you're a fucking lazy idiot who wants an easy way out of being criticized for your nazi propaganda talking points.
It's really fucking gross, you should be ashamed of yourself and fuck you.
Oh no what will I do without your continued petulant intransigence and mocking of abuse victims
Thank goodness you made a dramatic pronouncement like that instead of just fucking off hours ago like I suggested. Imagine being the main character and not having a mic drop.
Pretend I'm talking about all communists. If I wanted to do so, I would use the term "communists". But I don't see a reason to attack the group I myself belong to
Oh, which successful communists are you talking about?
Also, double genocide theory being holocaust trivialization still applies as it refers to calling the USSR fascist, if you think it is an irrelevant insuniation take it up with the Jewish holocaust scholars.
As I said to the person below, learn reading comprehension or fuck off. I don't want to engage in a conversation when I'm repeatedly being gaslit on what I said.
It's impossible to insult successful communists, as there are none. Unless you lower your bar enough to ignore glaring issues like ethnic cleansing of "unloyal" peoples and recreation of the capitalist mode of production.
I'm not interested in the "no U" back-and-forth. If you want to defend online tankie community producing prominent fascists, then do so without deflecting. If you don't, then stop acting indignant
I didn't mention Holocaust anywhere you paranoid fuck. Stop deflecting. If you link the double genocide thing once more I will assume you're just here to defend the resettlements. Which kinda proves my point.
Do you have anything to say about the prominent online fascists or fascist Russia apologists coming from the tankie community, some still publicly identifying as tankies?
I literally lost ancestors to the holocaust. Stop carrying water for fascists by equating the people who ended the holocaust to them. You're doing work to trivialize the holocaust, according to literally every prominent Jewish historian who studied the holocaust and has spoken about double genocide theory. This is literally a mainstream position outside of communist circles.
Either learn to prioritize not giving the nazis ammo over your desire to be a mini-mcCarthy or learn what the actual differences between communism and fascism are instead of relying on propaganda that benefits the nazis.
Fuck off you gaslighting fascist pig, losing ancestors to Holocaust doesn't prevent you from being a fascist POS which you proved enough to me already. I have zero respect for you as you keep lying about my words without a pause and kept deflecting criticisms of fascist behavior and ethnic cleansings by deceptively framing my position as something it is not. Which is the same egregious thing fascist supporters of Israeli apartheid are known for. Fuck off and go deport Kalmyks or whatever your favourite hobby is
I am not lying about your words. I am telling you that equating communists and fascists (which you have repeatedly done) is incorrect, and holocaust trivialization, according to mainstream liberal historians, which you could literally look up right now instead of continuing to show your own ass and be incredibly offensive to a communist organizer who lost family to the fucking holocaust.
Is double genocide theory in the room with us now? Why do you keep bringing this irrelevant shit up? How do some fucks equivocating USSR and Nazi Germany relate to the repackaged Russian fascist propaganda I see coming daily from the tankie community? How does it justify the defense of ethnic cleansing you've engaged in this conversation? A whole bunch of people sharing community with you came out of woodwork to lie about me the moment I mention the really bad fucking things I see daily among people like you. You all lie, you reframe my words into something entirely different, you keep bringing stuff from time periods completely unrelated to the fucked up shit I see in front of me. My original message had nothing to do with neither USSR nor Nazi Germany, it's you who decided to push the conversation towards "successful communists" and the DGT. I see the same fascist tactics of deflection as I'd see from Nazis or Israel apartheid supporters. "Oh, you've criticized our fascist behavior? But we've suffered greatly from Nazis, so it's you who's the real fascist actually". Your offense should be directed towards yourself internalizing fascist tactics and not me calling you out on them.
Is double genocide theory in the room with us now?
Yes, you repeatedly are equating communists with fascists which is the main rhetoric it uses to advance holocaust trivialization, you ass.
How does it justify the defense of ethnic cleansing you've engaged in this conversation?
Didn't you just accuse me of gaslighting?
Lmao.
repackaged Russian fascist propaganda I see coming daily from the tankie community?
You need to open a history book specialized in how fascist systems exist and operate. Russia is literally just a belligerent bourgeois democracy. Putin is beholden to the oligarchs, a word for capitalists with an orientalist connotation. There is not the transition from primarily extracting increases of productivity from abstract surplus labor value to concrete labor value which marks fascism economically.
What "tankie community" lol? There isn't a unified one. Do you mean us, who generally oppose the war and want a negotiated peace so Ukraine stops losing the war so expensively (in blood of conscripts)?
There's no equating, I specified which things I have issues with. You've been deflecting from those things by bringing up Holocaust, which is a tactic used by fascists. Also saying that there are prominent fascists who call themselves tankies or communists is not related to Holocaust in any way. The only way you can link it is by malicious use of the aforementioned tactic.
defense of ethnic cleansing
When I bring up ethnic cleansings done by USSR and the first thing you do is deflecting by lying that I said they were equal to Holocaust, this is defense of ethnic cleansing. When called out on that, you continued to do so, so I can't write it off as you being unaware of what you were doing. The moment you called me out on the thing you thought I was doing, I corrected you. When you got called out, you just ignored it and kept doing the same thing.
Russia is just a [...] democracy
Thank you for verifying you don't know shit. Trivializing fascism we go.
You need to open a history book specialized in how fascist systems exist and operate.
Generally it's a bad idea to hinge the whole question of whether a country is fascist on a single esoteric economic factor. Which part are you talking about: the slave labor? the war economy? You're a bit word salad-y there.
What “tankie community” lol?
The one which decided to come out on me with your fascist deflections. Or the same which keep calling Ukrainians Nazis, following the same propaganda tactic used in the War on Terror. The same from which fascists like Haz, Maupin, and Hinkle sprouted and got popular in. Or the same which tried to do whataboutism when I brought up Russian genocidal policies on trans people around a month ago. Those which pretend that created via a Nazi coup DNR is actually an embattled Russian minority defending itself and not a blatant puppet-state. The one that tried to justify Russian invasion to me countless of times, the one that parroted Russian narratives on Bucha. What I'm doing here is basically describing my every second interaction with tankies to you.
Obviously there's not a single community, but there are large nodes, and even if there were none, this wouldn't mean the patterns of behavior can't be criticized.
Lol do you people go around linking to your comments on hexbear so your 'comrades' can come upvote you? Hexbear comments are always unusually upvoted, even when it's a controversial topic or if the comment itself is braindead (most of them are).
It's both funny and sad that the reddit diaspora culture you're immersed in has carried over such a tradition of pointless snark and petty posturing that you see people supporting each other's points and can't imagine anything but a sinister conspiracy to derail you, the main character.
Like for the first time in maybe your whole life you're experiencing social media without a big corporate hand on the cultural scale, and you can either learn or continue to shit your pants amusingly.
Deride us as woke next.
Why would anyone do that? Wokeness is rad and cool, while tankies love to do fascist apologia, which is highly unwoke
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"My terminally online movement is not full of fascists and useful idiots parroting fascist propaganda because of, uhm, history" Yes, tell me again about the freikorps while every day I see another hazoid being besties with Nazis, or being a fascist themselves.
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I don't know if you're a fascist, I'm currently not interested enough to go checking.
Because you're on Lemmy defending legacy of a pejorative identifier when confronted with the fact that the modern online tankie community has produced a number of fascist-aligned notable persons over the last years, and keeps spreading and regurgitating fascist propaganda because of the common alignment against the West.
The history is important. In this conversation, history is irrelevant. Stop making it about your honor
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"Please stop pointing out we're friends with fascists, it hurts our feefees. Don't you know that muh history means I'm very cool and honorable despite being an internet warrior".
You're one step removed from a nationalist. Except you're feeding your insecurity with a different flavour of a myth.
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You're not beating the allegations, you're treating this the same way a nationalist would. If you don't see the irrelevance of historical anecdotes here, well, I guess that explains why you're a tankie.
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Haz, Maupin, Dore and all their sphere are fascist. One guy literally went through being an "anti-imperialist" tankie to going to Tucker Carlson and talking about how wokeness is destroying West or something. Even in comments here I see tankies gladly buying and spreading Russian bullshit about Ukrainians being Nazis. Or how when I recently mentioned Russia making genocidal policies against trans people, a lot of people from a tankie sub began whataboutisming me about that. The fact that you totally ignored my larger point (tankie community producing fascists), which you apparently know about and "dunk all the time" on. The fact that you tried to deflect from that by bringing up 50-years-old historical anecdotes which are irrelevant to this particular context. It's in the same vein as when Israel tries to deflect from accusation of fascism and apartheid by bringing up antisemitism and Holocaust. Of course, what Israel does is much worse than being a breeding ground for online fascists, but the mechanism of deflection here is similar. Don't try to strawman me on this. No matter which honorable or victimized identity you use, this remains a deflection.
You really need to start using real words for things. You are using "tankie" to describe everything under the sun right now and I literally have no idea what you're saying anymore.
I've actually been extremely consistent with my usage of the term throughout this conversation. The people I'm talking to keep using it for everyone under the sun, that's true. From a member of a third-world communist party 50 years ago to themselves to Joseph Stalin. My focus is currently on the online English-speaking community/ies of the last 5-10 years who would fit the term
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Who else would we talk about in a Lemmy conversation about people on Lemmy supporting Russia? I've been telling you the Vietnamese don't matter in this context from the very beginning.
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You know if you've misunderstood my initial comment you can just drop the posturing and say so
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It all comes down to ego
EDIT: I've made myself clear what I was talking about. The context was there, you were the first one to bring up the 20th century people. I could take some responsibility as the term is vague, but too many of you went for the dunks and posturing, making up shit about what I meant on the fly. The problem that truth here is relative and if enough of you decide that is what happened, whatever context I had in mind wouldn't matter. It's easy to be cynical about the whole interaction for both of us. Also good for the ego, as being wrong hurts and we all know it. I'm off to bed, will see if you add something else here later. It wasn't nice to talk to you, bye.
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You're a doodoo
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https://jacobin.com/2023/01/soviet-union-memorials-nazi-germany-holocaust-history-revisionism
Non-sequitur, I have nothing to reply to
Literally a direct reply to the exact thing you said
Please learn reading comprehension
I am quoting you here.
This is you committing the exact act being described in that article.
That makes it a direct reply to the exact thing you said.
Comment?
Please learn reading comprehension in regards the article in question. Or to my message. You seem to have trouble understanding at least one of the two
In regards to the article in question.
Thank you. I hope you've already followed or are about to follow my advice
Son you can't play stupid and act smug at the same time. You just look like a fucking idiot.
I don't like being lied about. I assume it's you not understanding either what I wrote or the article. Or you just don't care and I'm just feeding a troll
Or you're fucking stupid and you don't see the literal one to one reflection of what you said and the article you totally did actually read.
Okay, so you're just being a troll, I got it. Come back when you decide to stop being a gaslighting piece of shit
You can whine all you want about my disrespect for you becoming more and more pronounced but you're the one digging your heels in with bad faith
I say either shut the fuck up or act like you give a shit
Okay so not letting myself being gaslit by bad faith actors is digging my heels in I got it. Fuck off troll
Gaslighting is when someone shows you your own copy and pasted words and then tells you that an article is a relevant reply to your statement.
You're a fucking baby. If you can't engage with something so basic without having a tantrum and pulling reddit debatebro cliches out of a hat then why the fuck are you still here? I told you to act like you gave a shit or shut the fuck up. Why do you refuse both?
This is literally the gaslighter tactic. The moment you call out the behavior you're framed as the unstable one. I think I've made it clear that you're either wrong about the meaning of my words or you're actively lying about them, which I think is the most probable here as you keep being a POS about all of this. If you think there is a literal one-to-one correlation between the article and my words, you could've shown it to me hours ago. You didn't. I did read the article, it's not there. You keep pushing your bullshit without elaborating, so yeah, you're a troll.
One last try before I block you and go with my day, this is not productive at all.
Gaslighting is when you make someone question their own senses. I quoted your exact words to you.
Stop draping yourself in the cloak of abuse and mental health issues just because you're a fucking lazy idiot who wants an easy way out of being criticized for your nazi propaganda talking points.
It's really fucking gross, you should be ashamed of yourself and fuck you.
Blocked
Oh no what will I do without your continued petulant intransigence and mocking of abuse victims
Thank goodness you made a dramatic pronouncement like that instead of just fucking off hours ago like I suggested. Imagine being the main character and not having a mic drop.
Oh look, calling communists fascists
Surely people who do that aren't supportive of double genocide theory, which Jewish holocaust scholars condemn as carrying water for nazism.
Every time I criticize tankies they:
Oh, which successful communists are you talking about?
Also, double genocide theory being holocaust trivialization still applies as it refers to calling the USSR fascist, if you think it is an irrelevant insuniation take it up with the Jewish holocaust scholars.
As I said to the person below, learn reading comprehension or fuck off. I don't want to engage in a conversation when I'm repeatedly being gaslit on what I said.
Which successful communists aren't you insulting by comparing to fascists, which again, carries water for fascists
It's impossible to insult successful communists, as there are none. Unless you lower your bar enough to ignore glaring issues like ethnic cleansing of "unloyal" peoples and recreation of the capitalist mode of production.
I'm not interested in the "no U" back-and-forth. If you want to defend online tankie community producing prominent fascists, then do so without deflecting. If you don't, then stop acting indignant
You're literally just carrying water for fascists, according to Jewish experts on the holocaust.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
I didn't mention Holocaust anywhere you paranoid fuck. Stop deflecting. If you link the double genocide thing once more I will assume you're just here to defend the resettlements. Which kinda proves my point.
Do you have anything to say about the prominent online fascists or fascist Russia apologists coming from the tankie community, some still publicly identifying as tankies?
You literally called some communists fascists. You're equating them with people who did the holocaust. Which is problematic.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
Fuck you you fascist piece of shit. I'm not entertaining your deflections no more.
Cope you fascist pig
I literally lost ancestors to the holocaust. Stop carrying water for fascists by equating the people who ended the holocaust to them. You're doing work to trivialize the holocaust, according to literally every prominent Jewish historian who studied the holocaust and has spoken about double genocide theory. This is literally a mainstream position outside of communist circles.
Either learn to prioritize not giving the nazis ammo over your desire to be a mini-mcCarthy or learn what the actual differences between communism and fascism are instead of relying on propaganda that benefits the nazis.
Fuck off you gaslighting fascist pig, losing ancestors to Holocaust doesn't prevent you from being a fascist POS which you proved enough to me already. I have zero respect for you as you keep lying about my words without a pause and kept deflecting criticisms of fascist behavior and ethnic cleansings by deceptively framing my position as something it is not. Which is the same egregious thing fascist supporters of Israeli apartheid are known for. Fuck off and go deport Kalmyks or whatever your favourite hobby is
I am not lying about your words. I am telling you that equating communists and fascists (which you have repeatedly done) is incorrect, and holocaust trivialization, according to mainstream liberal historians, which you could literally look up right now instead of continuing to show your own ass and be incredibly offensive to a communist organizer who lost family to the fucking holocaust.
Is double genocide theory in the room with us now? Why do you keep bringing this irrelevant shit up? How do some fucks equivocating USSR and Nazi Germany relate to the repackaged Russian fascist propaganda I see coming daily from the tankie community? How does it justify the defense of ethnic cleansing you've engaged in this conversation? A whole bunch of people sharing community with you came out of woodwork to lie about me the moment I mention the really bad fucking things I see daily among people like you. You all lie, you reframe my words into something entirely different, you keep bringing stuff from time periods completely unrelated to the fucked up shit I see in front of me. My original message had nothing to do with neither USSR nor Nazi Germany, it's you who decided to push the conversation towards "successful communists" and the DGT. I see the same fascist tactics of deflection as I'd see from Nazis or Israel apartheid supporters. "Oh, you've criticized our fascist behavior? But we've suffered greatly from Nazis, so it's you who's the real fascist actually". Your offense should be directed towards yourself internalizing fascist tactics and not me calling you out on them.
Yes, you repeatedly are equating communists with fascists which is the main rhetoric it uses to advance holocaust trivialization, you ass.
Didn't you just accuse me of gaslighting?
Lmao.
You need to open a history book specialized in how fascist systems exist and operate. Russia is literally just a belligerent bourgeois democracy. Putin is beholden to the oligarchs, a word for capitalists with an orientalist connotation. There is not the transition from primarily extracting increases of productivity from abstract surplus labor value to concrete labor value which marks fascism economically.
What "tankie community" lol? There isn't a unified one. Do you mean us, who generally oppose the war and want a negotiated peace so Ukraine stops losing the war so expensively (in blood of conscripts)?
There's no equating, I specified which things I have issues with. You've been deflecting from those things by bringing up Holocaust, which is a tactic used by fascists. Also saying that there are prominent fascists who call themselves tankies or communists is not related to Holocaust in any way. The only way you can link it is by malicious use of the aforementioned tactic.
When I bring up ethnic cleansings done by USSR and the first thing you do is deflecting by lying that I said they were equal to Holocaust, this is defense of ethnic cleansing. When called out on that, you continued to do so, so I can't write it off as you being unaware of what you were doing. The moment you called me out on the thing you thought I was doing, I corrected you. When you got called out, you just ignored it and kept doing the same thing.
Thank you for verifying you don't know shit. Trivializing fascism we go.
Generally it's a bad idea to hinge the whole question of whether a country is fascist on a single esoteric economic factor. Which part are you talking about: the slave labor? the war economy? You're a bit word salad-y there.
The one which decided to come out on me with your fascist deflections. Or the same which keep calling Ukrainians Nazis, following the same propaganda tactic used in the War on Terror. The same from which fascists like Haz, Maupin, and Hinkle sprouted and got popular in. Or the same which tried to do whataboutism when I brought up Russian genocidal policies on trans people around a month ago. Those which pretend that created via a Nazi coup DNR is actually an embattled Russian minority defending itself and not a blatant puppet-state. The one that tried to justify Russian invasion to me countless of times, the one that parroted Russian narratives on Bucha. What I'm doing here is basically describing my every second interaction with tankies to you.
Obviously there's not a single community, but there are large nodes, and even if there were none, this wouldn't mean the patterns of behavior can't be criticized.
Lol do you people go around linking to your comments on hexbear so your 'comrades' can come upvote you? Hexbear comments are always unusually upvoted, even when it's a controversial topic or if the comment itself is braindead (most of them are).
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No, and you could easily investigate if you were actually earnestly asking that instead of just coping by being snarky.
Yes. It's very bad faith to pretend you don't understand how Lemmy works.
Also super cringe to make up a conspiracy theory to explain why people you disagree with have more internet points.
Best part is that I think they made a new account to post that comment
This thread is at the top of active on hexbear (after the weekly pinned threads). And we all know there’s gonna be libs here yearning for
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It's both funny and sad that the reddit diaspora culture you're immersed in has carried over such a tradition of pointless snark and petty posturing that you see people supporting each other's points and can't imagine anything but a sinister conspiracy to derail you, the main character.
Like for the first time in maybe your whole life you're experiencing social media without a big corporate hand on the cultural scale, and you can either learn or continue to shit your pants amusingly.