I'm pretty sure the whole thing is a false flag/astroturf to discredit sincere leftist discourse. It seems a lot like a blend of bad leftist parody, and edgy 14-year-olds who fell for it
I'm a leftist (not a liberal, actually leftist). It's not a difference in opinion, it's a presentation so outrageously bad it can't be in good faith. It's a middle-school mockery of communists, it just makes us look ridiculous to the people we should be engaging with sincerely.
Why is it hard to believe or understand that this, right here and now on lemmy, really is most westerners' first time interacting with actual communists? A lot of us dems are pretty open minded and a lot of us want the US to move toward socialism. But most of our exposure to communism has just been "communism bad." So of course we don't understand the fuller spectrum of leftism, because our fascist conservative party has forced everything so far to the right, and our education system is abysmal.
Then we come here and see a bunch of "stupid libs" memes, which from the outside we can't understand because we identify as liberals (leftists). You folks give off the same vibe of how our fascist conservatives treat us (own the libs, kill a dem to save America, etc), and I think thats why people assume or equate you with Nazis. We've never met real communists, and a lot of stuff on the internet is fake. It's entirely understandable.
You cannot say you are open minded while accusing people who disagree with you of being false flag astroterfers.
A lot of us dems are pretty open minded and a lot of us want the US to move toward socialism. But most of our exposure to communism has just been "communism bad." So of course we don't understand the fuller spectrum of leftism, because our fascist conservative party has forced everything so far to the right, and our education system is abysmal.
Why are you telling me this though; you've already written me off as a 'false flag/astroturf to discredit sincere leftist discourse.' If that's the case, what does explaining this to me accomplish?
Then we come here and see a bunch of "stupid libs" memes
How about this, the amount of bile we get from liberals is enormous, and we're tired of being expecting to respond with perfect manners when we know from experience that 90% of the people talking to us are doing so in bad faith and will spit any sincere effort on our parts back in our face.
You folks give off the same vibe of how our fascist conservatives treat us (own the libs, kill a dem to save America, etc), and I think thats why people assume or equate you with Nazis.
No offense, but if Nazism is just about 'vibes' to someone, then I don't think it is within my power to deprogram them, so why would I try.
It's entirely understandable.
The vast majority of liberals I interact with on the internet are venomous and hateful to me, that doesn't mean I assume they're all right wing false flags.
I think you may have confused me with the other poster. I don't think you are astroturfers. I'm saying I can see how other westerners would make that mistake - they're just not aware that real communists exist. We should be better informed, but we're not. Sorry.
I don't even "disagree" with communism personally, it's just that's it's largely impossible in the US. I'm willing to have discussions about it, but I also think compromise is important for any ideology. And communism seems to not want any compromise, which makes it hard to have a discussion. I could be wrong about that, though.
As for the vibes... I do think this is valid and I'll explain why. Most theories sound good on paper. Even our conservative fiscal policies sound reasonable in theory. But when you hang out with the conservatives who support these theories, you find out they don't actually care about the theory, they're just hiding their hateful culture war stuff behind the fiscal policy and saying "watch what we say, not what we do." So studying communist theory is all well and good, but what I'm really interested in is getting to know actual people who stand behind the theory.
I can't remember who said it (it might have actually been Stalin) but the "works in theory but not in practice" idiom is bad and should be abandoned. Political theory is for the purpose of practice. If it fundamentally does not practically work, then the problem is with the theory. If it isn't fundamentally broken, then you can't speak in such generalizations about it.
Conservatism is vile when you drill down into what they are saying and don't just let them wax poetic about pastoral bullshit and wealth. You don't even need to look at the real world, you can get their hate from the theory once they start talking about the poor. Marxism in no way resembles this.
I think they're bots because I nearly exactly agree with them politically. They're almost exactly my beliefs, but with the most annoying, self-righteous, groupthink presentation possible. That's why I think they're a false flag smear campaign to discredit actual leftists.
Consider the self-flattery of assuming a community that existed in isolation for three years just to eventually make you look bad when they became federated again.
Also, I think TheDude was underselling why they were originally banned on Reddit. They were the left-wing version of r/TheDonald. The reason he listed was just the excuse Reddit used to justify kicking them off the platform
No. I had an account when the instance was first set up, but I got banned for getting into an argument with a power-user. I wouldn't say it's always been like this, but this is definitely what it's like normally.
We mutated out of a band of subreddit refugees from r/ChapoTrapHouse, but I feel like the current community doesn't fully live up to what it used to be.
I think it was, by its nature, susceptible to compromise as described above, which has been capitalized upon. Whatever it was, or pretends to be, has pretty clearly been manipulated into a deliberately obnoxious parody that, functionally, obstructs left unity and overwhelmingly benefits neolibs.
"People" can engage in civil discourse to discuss those beliefs. That's not what I'm seeing, what I'm seeing is immediate strawmanning, insults, and overall cartoonish disrespect. That's not someone with a different belief, that's someone presenting the most obnoxious possible parody of someone with that belief.
What's funny is those beliefs aren't even that different, I'm pretty far left. This is just hivemind soundbite nonsense.
"People" can engage in civil discourse to discuss those beliefs
They can, but it's a two way street.
That's not what I'm seeing
That's because you aren't doing that yourself.
what I'm seeing is immediate strawmanning, insults, and overall cartoonish disrespect.
And that's exactly what I'm seeing from you and other shitjustworks users.
That's not someone with a different belief, that's someone presenting the most obnoxious possible parody of someone with that belief.
So should I take it that all the people doing a perfect impression of an obnoxious, arrogant, disrespectful lib (like yourself), are actually secretly right wing trolls?
Benefitting neolibs is when you're vocally against their highly profitable war in Ukraine, and left unity is when you vote blue to send cluster bombs to nazis.
This exactly. I swear the entire point is to discredit and divide. The FBI couldn't do a better job if they tried. What I've been finding really interesting is the stress they put on being "anti-racist, anti-homophobic, anti-transphobic, anti-fascist, etc". If you were really those things you would most definitely not need to shoehorn that into EVERY SINGLE COMMENT. "hey it's a nice day outside, I'm anti-racist anti homophobic anti trans anti fascist btw" Mind you on reddit when chapotraphouse was popular there were a lot of them talking about how they HATE identity politics and basically dismissing anything to do with race. So the pronouns in the names, the constant non sequitors about how they're actually "more anti-racist and anti-homophobic" than you, etc. It feels like it might just be really deep irony and they're just memeing it.
I mistakenly assumed that they would be more similar to chapotraphouse, but now I see that the 3 year exile has stripped away many of the reasonable people. I still hope some of these users will snap out of it and realize they are acting obnoxiously and unproductively, but the chances of that happening seem slim at this point.
CTH was aggressively leftist but it was actually funny and self aware. Hexbear seems to have forgotten how to interact with ordinary people.
I mean, I like aggressively leftist and most of lemmy that I've experienced feels that way. This hexbear shit feels like anti-leftist agitation though. It fucking stinks of feds. If not at the beginning, they're certainly there now
That's not what "just asking questions" means. I am clear about what I am asserting and what it means and am inviting you to contradict me if you really have a basis for what you say.
I'm pretty sure the whole thing is a false flag/astroturf to discredit sincere leftist discourse. It seems a lot like a blend of bad leftist parody, and edgy 14-year-olds who fell for it
This comment is the most "reddit liberal seeing real difference of opinion for the first time" thing I have ever seen.
I'm a leftist (not a liberal, actually leftist). It's not a difference in opinion, it's a presentation so outrageously bad it can't be in good faith. It's a middle-school mockery of communists, it just makes us look ridiculous to the people we should be engaging with sincerely.
I'm seeing much more outrageously bad presentation from the liberals than from the hexbears. Are they all right wing false flags too?
How about you lot try engaging with us sincerely for once?
Why is it hard to believe or understand that this, right here and now on lemmy, really is most westerners' first time interacting with actual communists? A lot of us dems are pretty open minded and a lot of us want the US to move toward socialism. But most of our exposure to communism has just been "communism bad." So of course we don't understand the fuller spectrum of leftism, because our fascist conservative party has forced everything so far to the right, and our education system is abysmal.
Then we come here and see a bunch of "stupid libs" memes, which from the outside we can't understand because we identify as liberals (leftists). You folks give off the same vibe of how our fascist conservatives treat us (own the libs, kill a dem to save America, etc), and I think thats why people assume or equate you with Nazis. We've never met real communists, and a lot of stuff on the internet is fake. It's entirely understandable.
You cannot say you are open minded while accusing people who disagree with you of being false flag astroterfers.
Why are you telling me this though; you've already written me off as a 'false flag/astroturf to discredit sincere leftist discourse.' If that's the case, what does explaining this to me accomplish?
How about this, the amount of bile we get from liberals is enormous, and we're tired of being expecting to respond with perfect manners when we know from experience that 90% of the people talking to us are doing so in bad faith and will spit any sincere effort on our parts back in our face.
No offense, but if Nazism is just about 'vibes' to someone, then I don't think it is within my power to deprogram them, so why would I try.
The vast majority of liberals I interact with on the internet are venomous and hateful to me, that doesn't mean I assume they're all right wing false flags.
I think you may have confused me with the other poster. I don't think you are astroturfers. I'm saying I can see how other westerners would make that mistake - they're just not aware that real communists exist. We should be better informed, but we're not. Sorry.
I don't even "disagree" with communism personally, it's just that's it's largely impossible in the US. I'm willing to have discussions about it, but I also think compromise is important for any ideology. And communism seems to not want any compromise, which makes it hard to have a discussion. I could be wrong about that, though.
As for the vibes... I do think this is valid and I'll explain why. Most theories sound good on paper. Even our conservative fiscal policies sound reasonable in theory. But when you hang out with the conservatives who support these theories, you find out they don't actually care about the theory, they're just hiding their hateful culture war stuff behind the fiscal policy and saying "watch what we say, not what we do." So studying communist theory is all well and good, but what I'm really interested in is getting to know actual people who stand behind the theory.
I can't remember who said it (it might have actually been Stalin) but the "works in theory but not in practice" idiom is bad and should be abandoned. Political theory is for the purpose of practice. If it fundamentally does not practically work, then the problem is with the theory. If it isn't fundamentally broken, then you can't speak in such generalizations about it.
Conservatism is vile when you drill down into what they are saying and don't just let them wax poetic about pastoral bullshit and wealth. You don't even need to look at the real world, you can get their hate from the theory once they start talking about the poor. Marxism in no way resembles this.
This is the most "American that doesn't understand the liberal is only considered left in the US" comment I have ever seen
Thinking people who disagree with you politically are bots or paid posters isn’t a healthy mindset to have.
I think they're bots because I nearly exactly agree with them politically. They're almost exactly my beliefs, but with the most annoying, self-righteous, groupthink presentation possible. That's why I think they're a false flag smear campaign to discredit actual leftists.
I don’t think you’re actually a communist. Not a real one at least.
Consider the self-flattery of assuming a community that existed in isolation for three years just to eventually make you look bad when they became federated again.
Maybe there is a real disagreement instead?
"They have what even I hold to be the correct beliefs, but they annoy me, therefore they are feds."
That's a tad myopic, don't you think?
Hexbears should be sent to the gulag for being cringe
Make posting cringe a crime
I doubt we agree of much. You reek of anarcho-natoism.
I'm literally in an org irl and I don't want to be federated with any of you
Then don't come here? You don't have to browse by 'All' you know
I like to also be able to see lemmygrad
Sounds like r/chapotraphouse in a nutshell.
Also, I think TheDude was underselling why they were originally banned on Reddit. They were the left-wing version of r/TheDonald. The reason he listed was just the excuse Reddit used to justify kicking them off the platform
what the fuck does that even mean, "left wing version of /r/TheDonald"
like the donald but believing the exact opposite things?
Yes. I don't get how you're confused by that
that's stupid, then, why would you bother to make a comment like that. Who gives a shit?
lol.
No. I had an account when the instance was first set up, but I got banned for getting into an argument with a power-user. I wouldn't say it's always been like this, but this is definitely what it's like normally.
We mutated out of a band of subreddit refugees from r/ChapoTrapHouse, but I feel like the current community doesn't fully live up to what it used to be.
I think it was, by its nature, susceptible to compromise as described above, which has been capitalized upon. Whatever it was, or pretends to be, has pretty clearly been manipulated into a deliberately obnoxious parody that, functionally, obstructs left unity and overwhelmingly benefits neolibs.
Or, maybe, people just hold different beliefs to you.
"People" can engage in civil discourse to discuss those beliefs. That's not what I'm seeing, what I'm seeing is immediate strawmanning, insults, and overall cartoonish disrespect. That's not someone with a different belief, that's someone presenting the most obnoxious possible parody of someone with that belief.
What's funny is those beliefs aren't even that different, I'm pretty far left. This is just hivemind soundbite nonsense.
They can, but it's a two way street.
That's because you aren't doing that yourself.
And that's exactly what I'm seeing from you and other shitjustworks users.
So should I take it that all the people doing a perfect impression of an obnoxious, arrogant, disrespectful lib (like yourself), are actually secretly right wing trolls?
found the fed
Benefitting neolibs is when you're vocally against their highly profitable war in Ukraine, and left unity is when you vote blue to send cluster bombs to nazis.
This exactly. I swear the entire point is to discredit and divide. The FBI couldn't do a better job if they tried. What I've been finding really interesting is the stress they put on being "anti-racist, anti-homophobic, anti-transphobic, anti-fascist, etc". If you were really those things you would most definitely not need to shoehorn that into EVERY SINGLE COMMENT. "hey it's a nice day outside, I'm anti-racist anti homophobic anti trans anti fascist btw" Mind you on reddit when chapotraphouse was popular there were a lot of them talking about how they HATE identity politics and basically dismissing anything to do with race. So the pronouns in the names, the constant non sequitors about how they're actually "more anti-racist and anti-homophobic" than you, etc. It feels like it might just be really deep irony and they're just memeing it.
What if they tried to convince liberals that any serious leftists was actually a right wing false flag? That seems to be working pretty well for them.
I mistakenly assumed that they would be more similar to chapotraphouse, but now I see that the 3 year exile has stripped away many of the reasonable people. I still hope some of these users will snap out of it and realize they are acting obnoxiously and unproductively, but the chances of that happening seem slim at this point.
CTH was aggressively leftist but it was actually funny and self aware. Hexbear seems to have forgotten how to interact with ordinary people.
I mean, I like aggressively leftist and most of lemmy that I've experienced feels that way. This hexbear shit feels like anti-leftist agitation though. It fucking stinks of feds. If not at the beginning, they're certainly there now
You think feds want you to support socialist countries and point out their achievements?You're delusional.
Say hi to your FBI handler for me.
Show me
Anyway, the rest of your post is basically a deranged imagining trying to cope with leftists whose attitudes are different than you are accustomed to.
This is the exact type of thing I'm talking about. If you're not a fed you're doing terrific for them for free
Because I don't believe things without evidence and don't like wacky conspiracy theories?
I'm just asking questions bro, debate me!
That's not what "just asking questions" means. I am clear about what I am asserting and what it means and am inviting you to contradict me if you really have a basis for what you say.