If you're not familiar with it, The Plot Against America is an alternative history where Charles Lindbergh is president instead of Roosevelt's third term and keeps the US out of WW2. It's worth watching if you can download/stream it, so maybe do that first if you don't want spoilers

spoilers from here on out

They make a lot of interesting choices that I'm curious how possible/popular they would have actually been. Like, I know there was pro-nazi sentiment but I thought it was pretty quickly soured the moment they invaded uhh poland right? 'cause nobody cared about the czech invasion right? idk I forget this stuff.

Also, it's kinda interesting seeing how the anti-communist stuff would have played into supporting a war effort; the US was obviously rabidly anti-communist ever since daddy marx invented it I guess right? but it does get especially weird when you think about pro-nazi sentiment being popular enough to also play into it.

And last; in the last scene, what do you think they are saying with the election tampering stuff? Who was it in favor of?

  • zw780 [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    I saw it a while ago I'm glad someone is discussing it here, I've been curious what people here think about it. I really enjoyed it myself. It's incredibly well made and I like that it keeps the focus on a small family with only occasional glimpses into what's actually going on in the Lindbergh presidency. Bengelsdorf is a really great portrayal of how individuals within minority groups can convince themselves that they can do good work within an administration that hates them. The show does a great job of showing how wrong Bengelsdorf is and that he gains nothing by working with Lindbergh.

    The show definitely feels like it was made mostly from a liberal perspective, but not overwhelmingly so. Herman says in one scene that he voted for Eugene Debs and that he only barely tolerates his one of friend's political views because they voted for FDR which is pretty great so the show seems somewhat receptive to leftist ideas. Hermann definitely comes across as a somewhat misguided socialist who puts a lot of faith into U.S. institutions and really believed that FDR was genuinely good for socialists in America. I can't tell if the writers also genuinely believe this or if they're just writing him that way. I'm probably just judging it a bit to hard in that area though, a lot of actual socialists during that time period probably thought the same way although there were exceptions In general though I think they do a good job of showing what a fascist America would look like during that time period. It wouldn't be quite as mask off as the Nazis but would still have awful policies like the "Just Folks" program. Lindbergh himself never openly says that he hates Jews but his rhetoric is very clearly anti-Semitic and he surrounds himself with known anti-Semites like Henry Ford.

    To answer a few of your questions, America had a large number of antiwar and specifically pro isolationism movements at the time. Even after the invasion of Poland it was still seen as an European affair and the Great Depression and memories of WW1 made many people take an anti war stance. Pearl harbor doesn't happen in this timeline likely because of Lindbergh active trading with the axis powers making Japan's oil shortage less acute which means that there's never an inciting incident brining the U.S. into the war. Before Pearl Harbor it was clear that Roosevelt wanted to go to war, but felt that he would not have support from the public/congress. So I think it's not that there is a lot of pro-Nazi sentiment in the U.S. (Although there was a fair amount, including Lindbergh himself) but that the isolationist movement is what really helps America stay out of the war in this timeline. This page is pretty helpful if you don't know about the America First movement and Lindbergh's involvement with it. Its basically what the show/book is based on, what if this movement was influential enough to elect someone president?

    The votes are definitely being rigged for whoever the Lindbergh successor is. They definitely wanted to make the point that just because people are voting doesn't mean that the election will be fair and that good people will prevail. It's a great message and one that's almost impossible not to connect to current events. I do wish they had pushed this idea a little bit harder but I do think you can interpret Hermann as being too complacent just because he voted but I'm not sure if that's intentional. Its also worth noting that they changed the ending from the book. In the book FDR wins the emergency election and then Pearl Harbor happens shortly after, basically setting things back to normal. The ending they went with in the show is definitely a lot better and shows that they wanted a different message than the "everything just goes back to normal" message that the book gives.

    I would recommend the companion podcast for the show. They go into a lot of depth about the various Jewish traditions and themes that they work into the show which is really interesting to learn about. The creator of the show is a bit of a lib sometimes but he has an okay message about how people need to be vigilant to protect democracy in the show and in real life. I would agree with him if we lived in an actual democracy and not our shitty American democracy lmao.

    • AliceBToklas [she/her]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      so first off; YESSSSS FEED ME YOUR LONG COMMENTS

      secondly, thanks for reminding me about the podcast I'm def gonna listen to it

      third; yeah herman's definitely got lefty who's too into electoral politics energy and I feel super called out by it lol

      fourth; you make a great point about how if the US had just kept selling japan oil they never would have set their sights eastward and how it was pretty much internal politics in the US that could have done that. and how without pearl harbor there's no popular feeling of "it could happen here".

      fifth; I definitely thought the part about the election was great for the same reasons; the complacency of voting saving you is way too strong in the US and these things are way too close to assume there will never be election interference that works. I would have been pissed if it went with a "just vote and everything goes back to normal" ending. god that would have been insufferable.

      With the election I think it was kinda confusing because after the whole bit of italian solidarity it was an italian mobster type pulling a voting machine out of the polling station but I guess they were going for the gladio shit by reminding you there were right wing italians.

      • zw780 [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Glad you enjoyed my long post lol. Feel free to reply to me/send me a message about the podcast if you want to discuss it. I have some other random thoughts about the show. Every once in a while in the show you can tell that they're making a Trump comparison, I can't think of specific examples but some of Herman's rants had some serious "2016 lib complaining about trump" energy. I actually don't mind the comparisons that much in this show since they're kind of justified with all the similarities. They're both demagogic celebrities that talk about America first. It feels like they avoid the dumb "isn't this just like Trump?" that a lot of media can fall into.

        Also I totally forgot that the creator of this show, David Simon, also made The Wire which I've never watched but have heard a lot of good things about even from leftists. Just from reading about it definitely criticizes capitalism directly which is nice.

        I just found this line on his Wikipedia page

        During a November 2013 speech at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas in Sydney, he said that America has become "a horror show" of savage inequality as a result of capitalism run amok, and that "unless we reverse course, the average human being is worth less on planet Earth. Unless we take stock of the fact that maybe socialism and the socialist impulse has to be addressed again; it has to be married as it was married in the 1930s, the 1940s and even into the 1950s, to the engine that is capitalism."

        I think that quote explains what his intention was with Hermann. He gets so close but he just can't imagine the end of capitalism. I do wonder if this is just a pragmatic stance or if he is legitimately opposed to getting rid of capitalism if given the opportunity. I still think the show is great and obviously the creator's intention isn't everything when it comes to a show with so many people working on it. I do think Alvin is a more solid leftist character. He never really explains his political beliefs but his unapologetic anti-fascism no matter where he is in the show is something I can get behind.

        • AliceBToklas [she/her]
          hexagon
          ·
          4 years ago

          I just got back from a little driving trip to see my sister and her new baby and had a bunch of time to listen to the podcast and I really loved getting that background on the production, thanks again for reminding me about it.

          The Wire is SO FUCKING GOOD, watch the hell out of it. I grew up nearish to Baltimore around the time period of The Wire and it's wild how even a show that's ostensibly about how the cops are fucked as an entire institution, they still make the cops in the show 10000x better than actual baltimore police. I won't spoil what's in the show, but just imagine the whole show being cops that are the bad guy cops and you have a way more accurate depiction of the BPD

          And with Herman and capitalism I feel like their passing line about debs makes it kinda weird how absent class rhetoric is from herman's criticisms. I guess the production was more interested in a cohesive narrative and couldn't get into the weeds on every facet of his politics but it does seem weird that herman theoretically voted for debs but never mentions the angle that capitalism takes in lindbergh's presidency outside of one kinda shoehorned scene with his brother that kinda feels forced or unbelievable.

    • AliceBToklas [she/her]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      It's a TV show but this is the closest comm that wasn't main. It was on Showtime March-April of this year, seems to just be the single limited season thing not an ongoing story with new writing.