It's often observed that there's a pipeline for a certain kind of lonely young man to find some right-wing personality who tells them that their lack of connection to other people and lack of romantic relationships isn't their fault -- it's the fault of e.g. feminism, liberalism, leftism, postmodern neomarxism, whatever series of words they want -- and then give them "pick up artist"-type advice on how to talk to women, usually in a very manipulative way that dehumanizes women.

I never participated in those communities because of the overt sexism, racism, homophobia, general right-wing beliefs, etc. But I do sometimes look at the people in those communities and think "There, but for the grace of god, go I." On paper, I have a lot in common with "incels", in that I'm 29 years old and have never had sex with another person, or been in a relationship, or even been on a capital-D Date.

(I'm going to be ranting a bit about myself here, and I realize that it's generally boring to read men complaining about how lonely they are. Leaving aside for the moment the question of why this is so common that it's become boring, I'll try to avoid being too self-pitying and stick to information and questions I think will be interesting or relatable to other people besides myself.)

I think a lot of people make all their dating mistakes in high school, so that by the time they're in their 20s, they've learned the basic dating scripts. I never learned that. I never even really got comfortable talking about sex and relationships -- my parents didn't talk to me about sex or dating, I never talked about it with my friends in high school, and I can't think of anyone in my life who I would be comfortable contacting to say "I have a crush on <person>, what should I do?" I don't have the vocabulary for it. I literally don't know what to do when I am attracted to someone. I know a bunch of things NOT to do -- e.g. obvious things like don't harass them, don't stalk them, don't abuse or manipulate them. In other words, don't be an asshole. Which is true enough as far as it goes, but those are just good rules on how I should treat EVERYONE, not specifically people I'm romantically interested in.

As far as positive actions I can take, the most I can figure is:

  • Try to spend more time with that person, going on small outings at first (e.g. walks, coffee) to get to know them better.
  • In general, take care of myself and my own life, on the reasoning that people are attracted to someone who has their life together. (Oh, and also because I'm a person who matters and my own health and happiness are important for their own sake, but whatever.)
  • Put some more effort into my appearance -- improving my clothing style, having some kind of skin care routine, and maybe getting a better haircut seem like good low-hanging fruit.

Okay, but this is still just generally good life advice outside of dating. It still seems like there are a lot of steps between "take basic care of myself and spend time with other humans" and actually getting into a relationship with someone. I'm fortunate enough to know lots of happy couples, but it's like, I've never "watched" two people fall in love, you know? I have lots of models in my life of people who are good partners in an existing relationship, but that tells me nothing about the initial process of attracting someone. I don't know what the process is supposed to be like. And I don't want to rely too much on the fictional examples I've seen -- it's become a cliche to point out that movies and TV show very unrealistic depictions of how relationships develop. So that leaves me without any narratives to inform me. (Although, if anyone knows of any fictional examples of a developing relationship that they see as being healthy models, please let me know.)

I believe that my experiences are a bit unusual, but not that uncommon among men my age (and especially among men my age who use the internet a lot). It might be reasonable to ask why this is. And an online right-wing asshole would give an explanation that involves the top 10% of alpha males taking the top 50% of women for themselves, leaving omegas like me with nothing. Which is silly, but I wonder if this is one of the many cases where right-wingers have (a) correctly noticed that there is a problem that center-liberals have ignored, but (b) completely misdiagnosed it so they could put forward their own racist, sexist, just generally awful ideology.

So, with all that in mind, what I would really love to see is resources for dating advice that:

  • Acknowledges that all people involved are humans deserving of respect. I really hate "seduction" advice, for any gender, that treats the person you're attracted to as a "mark" or a "victim" or someone you need to manipulate or deceive. If I thought that were a necessary part of starting a relationship, I'd rather die alone than deliberately abuse another person for my own gain. But -- as evidenced by the fact that I have friends who are in relationships and aren't assholes -- I don't think it should have to come to that.
  • Acknowledges that dating and attraction are complicated, non-obvious things that warrant explicit explanations. It's a cliche that "Just be yourself" is bad advice, but alternatives like "Just spend time around other people and don't be an asshole and eventually someone will fuck you" aren't much better. I'm not sure if I would describe myself as autistic, but I have found that it is very helpful for me to have certain supposedly "common-sense" things about interacting with other people explicitly explained to me.
  • Is specific to men, especially in a North American context. I'm sure there is some dating advice that applies to everyone, but the fact is, gender is (currently) something that has real effects on people's experiences, so it would surprise me if, for something as intrinsically gender-related as dating and attraction, there's not some good advice that's specific to men who are attracted to women.
  • purple_dolphin [she/her]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Girl here, who used to lurk on the old reddit site and now lurks here, but thought she might as well make an account to give some advice. Obviously all IMHO.

    If you're just after sex, then like one of the other commenters said, you could try finding a woman with a fetish for virgins. I also don't know about your background, but you might have hang-ups about sex which are holding you back. From personal experience, I was raised in a pretty religious family, and had a mother who told me not to have sex until I was married. I didn't have sex until I was 22 on a one night stand while backpacking . It was honestly a really good experience for me to wake up the next morning and feel EXACTLY the same as I did before. The sex was good, but it wasn't some kind of soul-altering experience where I suddenly felt like a true adult and formed an instantaneous bond with my partner. Once I got home I had heaps more confidence when dating because I'd already got the first time 'over-and-done-with'.

    If you're wanting to get into a romantic relationship, there's not any one way to go about it. All the relationships I know developed in different ways. I met my boyfriend when we were living in the same apartment block but other friends have met long-term partners online, at work, while waiting for a bus etc. One thing that all relationships need to develop though is time spent alone with each other. Another poster here suggested that you could try Bumble/Tinder and I'd really recommend that to get used to meeting up with women one-on-one (from my understanding you've never really done this) . In my experience these apps aren't great for finding a serious relationship (or even just casual sex) but if you want to get some practise going on dates they're a great place to start.

    You said that you've never been on a date before, and you also think that you might not necessarily pick up on social cues or have trouble expressing your feelings. Here's what I suggest you do:

    Make a profile on Bumble/Tinder. To me Bumble seems less sleazy. Chose photos that showcase your best self, but don't give at totally inaccurate impression. Try to include some of you doing hobbies/with your mates/with your pets. Talking to guys I've heard it can be disheartening to constantly message women and not hear back, but it's a numbers game, just keep persisting.

    Once you've matched with a woman you can get talking about your hobbies, movies you've seen recently etc.

    If you've had a conversation back and forth for at least ~15 exchanges, just ask her if she wants to meet up. Don't make a vague suggestion: 'want to meet up sometime?' Suggest a specific time and activity: 'want to go and check out the Christmas markets this Saturday afternoon?' If the woman declines, and doesn't suggest an alternative time or activity, you can suggest another activity/time, but if she declines twice she's not interested.

    Meeting up for a meal/coffee might seem like the natural choice, but I'd suggest doing an activity: hiking, mini-golf, bowling, visiting a museum, ice-skating etc. I'm always more impressed when a guy makes a bit of an effort to chose something. There's also the added advantage of having something to do, which helps if you think you might be awkward or run out of conversation topics while at a restaurant/cafe. This can be a big problem with online dating if you've already chatted and asked a lot of the small-talk questions while texting. Obviously, suggest something in a public place where there's plenty of people around if you're meeting her for the first time! And nothing that lasts more than 2 hours or is expensive.

    Before the date, do all the regular stuff: have a shower, brush your hair and teeth etc. Wear clothing that's suitable for whatever you have planned and is in a flattering style/colour etc. Make sure you have each other's phone numbers and a clear plan of when and where you'll meet up.

    During a first date try to keep it casual and just enjoy the activity. If you get on really well you can always go and get something to eat or drink afterwards, but if the date doesn't work out the end of the activity makes a clear ending point for the date.

    There seems to be a lot of advice out there on how long you should wait before getting in touch with a date. I reckon a lot of it's bullshit, just text the next day saying 'Thanks for a great time yesterday'.

    I think one of the advantages of dating when you're 29 is people are going to be more mature and honest than when they were younger. If a woman's not interested she's likely to tell you.

    No matter what, you've been on a date! It's the first step to getting into a relationship with a woman and if you've done it once you can do it again!

    Finally, wanted to add that you seem like a really decent guy; you don't want to use women and care about their feelings. I wouldn't be too worried about social skills if you've been able to ask women you are interested in out on dates, have them reject you, and still maintain friendships with them.

    TL;DR if you're just after sex , look for women who have a fetish for virgins. If you're wanting more 'practise' at dating/relationships sign up for an app and go on some low-key dates/outings with women.

    • WhatAnOddUsername [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      Thanks for the response. I have had one-on-one meetups with female friends. I actually went out just the other day -- I'm giving away some of my books, and one of my friends wanted one, so we met in person at a nearby park so I could give her the book and we went for a short walk in the park -- but never something I would call a Date with a capital D.

      Which seems like an important distinction, in the sense that, if my intention is to pursue a relationship, it's important for me to communicate that. But it is somewhat helpful to consider that asking to go out and do something with another person is not completely outside the realm of my experience.

      It's funny -- I'm bisexual (that's not the funny part) and I tried signing up for Tinder a while ago with the idea of dating men and women. I found myself matching with a lot of men, and thinking "Oh my god, how do I talk to men?" even though I am one.

    • gleemer_ [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      look for women who have a fetish for virgins

      lmfao yeah and im gonna go unicorn hunting later