I think it's worth noting that, prior to the war, the default position was "There are definitely Nazis in Ukraine and we should be concerned about that." The position changed to "There are no Nazis in Ukraine" on the day the invasion started and people have been flailing around since trying to figure out how to reconcile that against years of generally accepted reporting on the rise of the Ukrainian far-right.
Yeah I have a bookmarked search setting for pre-February 2022 searches because of how rapidly the entire media landscape changed overnight. Have to use a lot of archives and waybackmachines as well, since a lot of it was deleted or edited later. All the "pro-Russian" media also got censored and banned and is just gone now, which includes a lot of leftist smaller independent media. FAIR and Grayzone and Mint Press are all suppressed in google search algos compared to pre-Russiagate hysteria
I remember thinking when I was younger and more naive, that we might not have had the 'war on terror' in Afghanistan or the invasion of Iraq right after, if internet access was more prevalent at the time (or at the least it would have been much more loudly opposed)
This all has made me realize how very foolish that line of thought was
ed. Your comment about things being deleted reminded me of how I was trying to find a specific Reuters article about how Ukraine press-ganged prisoners with military experience into the war very early on; I couldn't find it later, and I doubt I could if I looked now. Just something to add to the pot
Yeah Internet Utopianism was very widespread back in the day, we really thought it would enlighten humanity and bring peace on earth and all that. Total cope on our part, the internet has many upsides and downsides but a lot more negatives IMO
Would you be willing to share some archived links here? I didn't learn about the Ukraine Nazi problem before the war and it's been a bear trying to find information now
This is not a source, just a second hand anecdote, but at my buddy's wedding (in 2018 or so) his brother (who is a disgusting "war trainer" or some such for the army) said they had a real problem with Ukrainian soldiers stealing the equipment they were training them with to sell to nazi paramilitary groups.
Apparently those dudes would pay top dollar to not fight with old AKs.
It's super visible in the YouTube comments on Vice's video about the rise of neo-Nazis in Ukraine prior to the war. Any pre-war comments are basically "wow this is concerning, hope Ukraine finds a way to stop this", post-war comments are "wow vice is Putler propaganda now"
"Wow, all of these major publications that are currently supporting the war in Ukraine sure were posting a lot of Russian propaganda before the war. Are we sure we can trust them now?"
This is a dumb gotcha I made up in my head that won't work on liberals because they're perfectly okay contradicting themselves constantly.
I think it's worth noting that, prior to the war, the default position was "There are definitely Nazis in Ukraine and we should be concerned about that." The position changed to "There are no Nazis in Ukraine" on the day the invasion started and people have been flailing around since trying to figure out how to reconcile that against years of generally accepted reporting on the rise of the Ukrainian far-right.
Even trying to just FIND articles about this sort of thing, I have to configure search to only look for items prior to invasion
Otherwise I just get items about how it's Russian propaganda (or nothing)
Yeah I have a bookmarked search setting for pre-February 2022 searches because of how rapidly the entire media landscape changed overnight. Have to use a lot of archives and waybackmachines as well, since a lot of it was deleted or edited later. All the "pro-Russian" media also got censored and banned and is just gone now, which includes a lot of leftist smaller independent media. FAIR and Grayzone and Mint Press are all suppressed in google search algos compared to pre-Russiagate hysteria
I remember thinking when I was younger and more naive, that we might not have had the 'war on terror' in Afghanistan or the invasion of Iraq right after, if internet access was more prevalent at the time (or at the least it would have been much more loudly opposed)
This all has made me realize how very foolish that line of thought was
ed. Your comment about things being deleted reminded me of how I was trying to find a specific Reuters article about how Ukraine press-ganged prisoners with military experience into the war very early on; I couldn't find it later, and I doubt I could if I looked now. Just something to add to the pot
Yeah Internet Utopianism was very widespread back in the day, we really thought it would enlighten humanity and bring peace on earth and all that. Total cope on our part, the internet has many upsides and downsides but a lot more negatives IMO
Would you be willing to share some archived links here? I didn't learn about the Ukraine Nazi problem before the war and it's been a bear trying to find information now
This is not a source, just a second hand anecdote, but at my buddy's wedding (in 2018 or so) his brother (who is a disgusting "war trainer" or some such for the army) said they had a real problem with Ukrainian soldiers stealing the equipment they were training them with to sell to nazi paramilitary groups.
Apparently those dudes would pay top dollar to not fight with old AKs.
It's super visible in the YouTube comments on Vice's video about the rise of neo-Nazis in Ukraine prior to the war. Any pre-war comments are basically "wow this is concerning, hope Ukraine finds a way to stop this", post-war comments are "wow vice is Putler propaganda now"
Ukraine never even tried, they like "this"
"Wow, all of these major publications that are currently supporting the war in Ukraine sure were posting a lot of Russian propaganda before the war. Are we sure we can trust them now?"
This is a dumb gotcha I made up in my head that won't work on liberals because they're perfectly okay contradicting themselves constantly.