I agree with trans people picking whatever category they prefer but I disagree with getting rid of categories altogether and with the rhetoric around "fairness" not applying to sport. Trans women won't destroy women's sports but gender desegregation will, for most sports at least, and I don't see why we should want that.
but it certainly should not be based around any form of exclusion whatsoever to people who identify as part of the group
Yes, however I don't think that is incompatible with keeping the categories. Keep the categories and let people pick the one that best fits their identity.
The concept of fairness comes secondary to being inclusive/being nice/etc because seriously, it’s entertainment, who wins and who loses isn’t that important.
True, the reason I want the categories to stay is because of inclusion, unfortunately most popular sports are based around men's bodies, and doing away with the categories completely would be detrimental to inclusion in professional sports.
The only relevant character between Male and Female bodies is the gender identity they express. That can be as simple as saying a sentence "I am Female."
How the fuck does it make sense to segregate sports when there are no physical differences between Male and Female bodies??? Get out of here with that garbage.
like, i'm trans, i get what you're getting at. gender's all bullshit and arbitrary and fake anyway, so assigning gender to bodies is equally fake and arbitrary, and is therefore meaningless. i get it.
testosterone absolutely has an effect if it's present in your body during puberty, however. using "male" and "female" as shorthand for "had testosterone during puberty" and "not having testosterone during puberty" is pretty weird in light of gender being fake anyway, but in practical use, it's not tangibly different from just calling it "type 1" and "type 2" bodies or whatever. people with testosterone in their bodies will, on average, perform better than those without. there's a reason the division exists.
sure, dividing up sports based on less arbitrary metrics is probably ideal - a basketball league might care more about your height and ability to run for a long time, while a wrestling league might care more about your weight and raw strength or whatever. there's a reason boxing and other combat sports are divided up into weight classes, for instance. but like. fuckin no one wants to do all those measurements for an after-work league down at the rec center yknow?
absolutely, "but what about womens sports???" is just a bullshit distraction to give reactoids an excuse to go "ah, see, we deem trans people different in sports, why can't we deem them different in other regards too??", but that, uh, doesn't mean testosterone isn't real?
testosterone absolutely has an effect if it’s present in your body during puberty, however. using “male” and “female” as shorthand for “had testosterone during puberty” and “not having testosterone during puberty” is pretty weird in light of gender being fake anyway, but in practical use, it’s not tangibly different from just calling it “type 1” and “type 2” bodies or whatever.
Yeah well that's why many people talk about the sex-gender distinction. Gender is a social thing, sex is biological. Of course sex too is a bit more nuanced but everything is.
sure, dividing up sports based on less arbitrary metrics is probably ideal - a basketball league might care more about your height and ability to run for a long time, while a wrestling league might care more about your weight and raw strength or whatever. but like. fuckin no one wants to do all those measurements for an after-work league down at the rec center yknow?
There is weight classes in some sports, but they gonna fix the issue completely for some sports.
I've asked some women athletes I know and they don't care about trans people picking their preferred categories but they do want the categories to be there because otherwise it's just not viable for most of them to compete. I think the outrage about trans women in women's sports is silly because, whatever, some of them win something every now and then, so what? It's not important.
I think the outrage about trans women in women’s sports is silly because, whatever, some of them win something every now and then, so what? It’s not important.
pretty much. the extent of the outrage is like, "omg one trans girl came 3rd in high school track and field once". yeah wow cool so you mean she didn't even win, it only happened one time, at only one out of thousands of high schools? who gives a shit then
Yeah like even if a trans woman, like, I dunno, breaks every record in a sport, who cares? It doesn't hurt women's sports. It would hurt if they literally couldn't compete any more, and that's not gonna happen.
Don't bring truscum garbage onto this site. **Someone is trans when they tell you they are. ** End of question.
Rubbing your hands and helping bigots differentiate between two different types of female bodies is nothing more than saying Trans Women aren't really Women. There is no 'test' you can make that isn't going to just be a way to oppress minorities.
don't think i said that people who aren't on hrt aren't trans, not even close. re-read the post.
testosterone has a tangible, measurable effect on athletic performance. that's all. pretending it doesn't is incredible naive. dividing up sports leagues based on performance seems pretty reasonable to me. we should probably find a better metric to divide up sports than gender lines in light of this, but outside of professional leagues that would have the resources to measure every competitor, i can't think of any good ways to do so.
? It is objectively true, you're talking about social gender but there is also biological sex. Like, even if you complegely ignore the average differences regarding a bunch of different features, there's the whole different chromosome thing, and the whole dicks and vaginas thing. Again, you're talking about social gender, and I am not.
I agree with trans people picking whatever category they prefer but I disagree with getting rid of categories altogether and with the rhetoric around "fairness" not applying to sport. Trans women won't destroy women's sports but gender desegregation will, for most sports at least, and I don't see why we should want that.
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Yes, however I don't think that is incompatible with keeping the categories. Keep the categories and let people pick the one that best fits their identity.
True, the reason I want the categories to stay is because of inclusion, unfortunately most popular sports are based around men's bodies, and doing away with the categories completely would be detrimental to inclusion in professional sports.
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Yeah I agree with that.
The only relevant character between Male and Female bodies is the gender identity they express. That can be as simple as saying a sentence "I am Female."
How the fuck does it make sense to segregate sports when there are no physical differences between Male and Female bodies??? Get out of here with that garbage.
that's like. literally not the case though.
like, i'm trans, i get what you're getting at. gender's all bullshit and arbitrary and fake anyway, so assigning gender to bodies is equally fake and arbitrary, and is therefore meaningless. i get it.
testosterone absolutely has an effect if it's present in your body during puberty, however. using "male" and "female" as shorthand for "had testosterone during puberty" and "not having testosterone during puberty" is pretty weird in light of gender being fake anyway, but in practical use, it's not tangibly different from just calling it "type 1" and "type 2" bodies or whatever. people with testosterone in their bodies will, on average, perform better than those without. there's a reason the division exists.
sure, dividing up sports based on less arbitrary metrics is probably ideal - a basketball league might care more about your height and ability to run for a long time, while a wrestling league might care more about your weight and raw strength or whatever. there's a reason boxing and other combat sports are divided up into weight classes, for instance. but like. fuckin no one wants to do all those measurements for an after-work league down at the rec center yknow?
absolutely, "but what about womens sports???" is just a bullshit distraction to give reactoids an excuse to go "ah, see, we deem trans people different in sports, why can't we deem them different in other regards too??", but that, uh, doesn't mean testosterone isn't real?
Yeah well that's why many people talk about the sex-gender distinction. Gender is a social thing, sex is biological. Of course sex too is a bit more nuanced but everything is.
There is weight classes in some sports, but they gonna fix the issue completely for some sports.
I've asked some women athletes I know and they don't care about trans people picking their preferred categories but they do want the categories to be there because otherwise it's just not viable for most of them to compete. I think the outrage about trans women in women's sports is silly because, whatever, some of them win something every now and then, so what? It's not important.
pretty much. the extent of the outrage is like, "omg one trans girl came 3rd in high school track and field once". yeah wow cool so you mean she didn't even win, it only happened one time, at only one out of thousands of high schools? who gives a shit then
Yeah like even if a trans woman, like, I dunno, breaks every record in a sport, who cares? It doesn't hurt women's sports. It would hurt if they literally couldn't compete any more, and that's not gonna happen.
It is literally the case.
Don't bring truscum garbage onto this site. **Someone is trans when they tell you they are. ** End of question.
Rubbing your hands and helping bigots differentiate between two different types of female bodies is nothing more than saying Trans Women aren't really Women. There is no 'test' you can make that isn't going to just be a way to oppress minorities.
don't think i said that people who aren't on hrt aren't trans, not even close. re-read the post.
testosterone has a tangible, measurable effect on athletic performance. that's all. pretending it doesn't is incredible naive. dividing up sports leagues based on performance seems pretty reasonable to me. we should probably find a better metric to divide up sports than gender lines in light of this, but outside of professional leagues that would have the resources to measure every competitor, i can't think of any good ways to do so.
There literally are?
Literally coming into a trans support thread and dying on the hill of 'there are differences between men and women bodies'. Fuck off bigot.
? It is objectively true, you're talking about social gender but there is also biological sex. Like, even if you complegely ignore the average differences regarding a bunch of different features, there's the whole different chromosome thing, and the whole dicks and vaginas thing. Again, you're talking about social gender, and I am not.