• RedDawn [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    What is the negative effect of consciousness on the ability to pass down one’s genes that would cause it to definitely be selected against to the point that anybody could say it “couldn’t have evolved”?

    • space_comrade [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      It's not about consciousness being either positive or negative, by definition it has to be neutral from a physicalist perspective since all is matter and consciousness is wholly a product of matter and by itself has no chance of showing itself as either positive or negative. So a physicalist view kinda forces you to think of consciousness as an accident in evolution.

      Now if it's an accident why has consciousness even evolved in the exact way it did given these physicalist assumptions? It seems to have no reason to, unless you bring into the picture an intelligent designer or that it's this one in a trillion accident, both of which seem unlikely to me.

      To me (and the author of the article) it would make much more sense to assume consciousness itself is a basic substance of existence.

      • RedDawn [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        It’s not about consciousness being either positive or negative

        It is about that. You can’t make a convincing case that something “could not have evolved” unless it has a negative affect on the ability to survive or reproduce, or is not heritable.

        • space_comrade [he/him]
          ·
          4 years ago

          It could have evolved, but if it has no causal effect then you can only regard it as a "evolutionary spandrel", or an accident basically. Neutral traits exist.

          The whole point of the argument is examining whether declaring it a spandrel makes sense. I don't think it does.

          • RedDawn [he/him]
            ·
            4 years ago

            Literally all evolution is “accidental”, there is no such thing as purposeful evolution.

            • space_comrade [he/him]
              ·
              4 years ago

              I don't know how to explain it better honestly, but I'll try again.

              You believe everything is matter and consciousness is somehow reducible to matter, right? That means consciousness in of itself does not have any causal effect on the material world, correct?

              If so that means that consciousness cannot be part of any natural selection process, and if it wasn't why did it evolve in the exact way it did? Why even is there consciousness? And if there is why isn't it just a random collection of experiences that don't at all correspond to the material world at all? The only real answer from a physicalist perspective is that it's just this big coincidence, which just seems very unlikely to me. If your theory depends on assuming this huge coincidence then your theory is kind of in trouble IMO.

              • RedDawn [he/him]
                ·
                4 years ago

                You believe everything is matter and consciousness is somehow reducible to matter, right? That means consciousness in of itself does not have any causal effect on the material world, correct?

                No, what? It doesn’t mean that at all.

                • space_comrade [he/him]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  Alright, can you elaborate? What is consciousness from your point of view and how does it causally interact with matter?

                  • RedDawn [he/him]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    I honestly do not even understand the question “how does it causally interact with matter”? Consciousness is awareness of existence, and it is the result of some processes of the body and brain.