Current school situation now: Training center that is a microcosm for the workforce. Cheating is basically allowed and part of the ritual, but only the privileged kids (white males) will get a slap on the wrist for cheating incorrectly. Are you a person of color? Our white social workers with white savior complexes will give your young Brown kid Oppositional Defiant Disorder, and they'll be in jail quickly. Teacher is authoritarian. Be there at 8:00 AM or else. Plagiarism is bad, but rape accusations? Yeah we don't talk about rape. Everyone stand for the flag and recite the pledge of allegiance. Recess and lunch are at 12:00 and 10:00, do not even think about getting out of your seat during those times.
School after capitalism: Walkable community center for kids, project based education instead of grades and SATs which actually encourage cheating. PHDs use notes and an open book for their published work, so why can't kids do this? The testing system is gone int this version of school. What's a school to prison pipeline in this system? School starts at 10 AM but kids aren't marked late for being there at 11 AM cause fuck rigid schedules, you get off at 3pm and there are social activities for kids for the ones who like it there. Who the hell is the teacher here? Oh look, a kid is telling his teacher about his community's teaching and learning style and the teacher learns something and adjusts their teaching style for said kids in the community, and while there is a teacher in school, the line is definitely blurred since students are part of a democracy too since this is what a socialist society encourages. Teachers are the students and students are the teachers and everyone gasps in horror at the fact that administration had so much control over the education system in capitalist America.
So when does school stop being school here? Nothing wrong with abolishing school, school doesn't even look like school in the second example and I think people disagreeing with abolishing school aren't wrong. It's just that twitter is horrible for expressing ideas as opposed to sites like Hexbear. The twitter OP should've described what school is now and what education or school looks after capitalism but here we are arguing.
Like the ship of Theseus; if you change the parts it is still the same ship, if you change the structure and function it a new ship. Changing the propaganda from communism bad to communism good does not meaningfully change what a school is but changing it's purpose from indoctrination to emancipation does.
This whole point just makes it sound like you were upset that you got caught cheating and plagiarizing and that everyone else was cheating too (they weren't). Like seriously how else are we supposed to interpret you shrugging off plagiarism by saying "at least it isn't rape". Good lord that sounds like a Cumtown bit. You understand why cheating is bad right? Also what's wrong with making kids be in class on time? Its really easy to do and if you are consistently late you start to fall behind the rest of the class. Its a basic skill you will need to function in all forms of society including communist ones.
First off school officially starts at 10 am, but the teachers dont start teaching until 11 am because no one shows up until then. The little kids all have a shared community teaching and learning style that they all learn best from? What are you talking about, that isn't real thing. Do you actually think schools suck because the teachers had too much control? Students are teachers? What?! Teaching is really, really hard. Students don't know how to do it. This isn't a hallmark movie where the kids are pure and wise.
I think the second version of school would at best cover 1/4th of the material in the same timeframe, with the majority of kids not bothering to learn anything that didn't immediately interest them.
You are right, the first point does make it sound like I'm excusing the most reprehensible acts next to plagiarism. What I'm trying to say here is that systemic rape culture isn't even taken seriously in college campuses but they will absolutely attack plagiarism despite rape being WAY worse. Sorry if I did not clarify it. I would say that cheating is definitely widespread in education because of the grading and is definitely part of the hidden curriculum in capitalist education. There are definitely failsons who got into top-tier schools partially cheating their way there, and there are definitely young kids who went to a HBCU who did everything the honest way and cut fewer corners than their white counterparts, but they end up in jobs that aren't equivalent to their white counterparts. Note that Black kids must play the rules or they'll be threatened with jail edit: and this 'playing by the book' actually segregates them into rigid manual labor, and low-level admin work which is what detention socializes them to do anyways. So even playing by the rules forces them into what dominant culture sees as low-status work. Meanwhile, white kids will end up in so-called innovative skunkworks projects.
As for schools starting later and some kids not showing up later, I was trying to demonstrate time as a social construct which was used as a way to assemble us into working schedules. Even medieval peasants didn't have such rigid schedules, so why can't a socialist society work without such rigid schedules? We don't even know what post-capitalist culture would look like after dismantling the Fordism in our head. You noticed what was wrong in my examples, just imagine the long sessions of what must be done to make socialist education a reality. We aren't even close to a post-school/school abolitionist model of thinking unless we get Fordism out of our heads!
Peasants didn't have a rigid schedule cause plants don't and looking at the sun is a shitty way to measure time so they measured time bad. We're industrialized and have been for a while, better just get used to it cause electricity rules
Because time is a social construct that is extremely useful for organizing people. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from making time less strict. Not measuring the hours doesn't make them disappear. Recreating ways of thinking about the day won't actually change the way you live your life.
Just because I imagine it different doesn't mean I can't imagine it. Monks also related to society by being fucking parasites. It's pretty cool making a living praying for the souls of novels so it's okay if they wage war. Those medieval chunks of time also sound a lot like a work schedule but without an accurate means of measuring time.
I don't disagree with you at all on any point but I would say that sort of because of that we don't really need to conciously give a shit about how we measure time because of that. Like it's true but I don't think it matters.
I'm gonna contest your cheating culture. Look I went to high school with some kids who got into THE top tier schools. Cornell, Harvard, Columbia. None of those kids were cutting corners and they werent just white kids. Everyone in the school knew they worked hard, and that they deserved it. In my school, you could cheat on homework, the tests it was impossible outside of one really lazy chemistry teacher. Several people were busted for trying. I'm sure in other schools cheating is widespread but if your teachers give a shit they can squash it easily. The failsons who cheated whenever possible all went to low level state schools because, lo and behold, they sucked at SAT/ACTs. If you were a kid who didn't cheat and got good test scores you could get accepted into a decent school. Its not hard to do well in high school, the only kids who didn't do well were the ones who clearly didn't give a crap about school. Giving a shit and actually spending time on the assignments is all you need do well. Also, I've read about some bad highschools, remember that even the laziest failsons aren't truants. People who don't show up are screwed.
At my college (which wasnt a top tier one), basically the same thing. You could get away with cheating on assignments, and certain electives. But on tests in 2000+ level class? It was impossible. Multiple TAs patrolling the classroom watching students. They timed the tests in a way that you weren't going to get test questions ahead of time from peeps in other sections either. Past tests weren't a help since they were completely redone every semester. In fact teachers would usually give out past tests as practice.
If you really believe that everyone at the top is a fraud that doesn't know anything and that they cheated their way there, I'm here to say that's not true. If you think that, you went to bad schools with teachers who didn't care enough to stop the cheating. The work socialists do would help make it so there fewer bad schools.
I don't personally prefer it but get there at 10, otherwise are teachers and students just supposed to wait around and waste an hour of their life every day waiting for people to show up or should lessons just continue and late people can catch up of fall behind? Punctuality under communism is about being considerate.
Current school situation now: Training center that is a microcosm for the workforce. Cheating is basically allowed and part of the ritual, but only the privileged kids (white males) will get a slap on the wrist for cheating incorrectly. Are you a person of color? Our white social workers with white savior complexes will give your young Brown kid Oppositional Defiant Disorder, and they'll be in jail quickly. Teacher is authoritarian. Be there at 8:00 AM or else. Plagiarism is bad, but rape accusations? Yeah we don't talk about rape. Everyone stand for the flag and recite the pledge of allegiance. Recess and lunch are at 12:00 and 10:00, do not even think about getting out of your seat during those times.
School after capitalism: Walkable community center for kids, project based education instead of grades and SATs which actually encourage cheating. PHDs use notes and an open book for their published work, so why can't kids do this? The testing system is gone int this version of school. What's a school to prison pipeline in this system? School starts at 10 AM but kids aren't marked late for being there at 11 AM cause fuck rigid schedules, you get off at 3pm and there are social activities for kids for the ones who like it there. Who the hell is the teacher here? Oh look, a kid is telling his teacher about his community's teaching and learning style and the teacher learns something and adjusts their teaching style for said kids in the community, and while there is a teacher in school, the line is definitely blurred since students are part of a democracy too since this is what a socialist society encourages. Teachers are the students and students are the teachers and everyone gasps in horror at the fact that administration had so much control over the education system in capitalist America.
So when does school stop being school here? Nothing wrong with abolishing school, school doesn't even look like school in the second example and I think people disagreeing with abolishing school aren't wrong. It's just that twitter is horrible for expressing ideas as opposed to sites like Hexbear. The twitter OP should've described what school is now and what education or school looks after capitalism but here we are arguing.
Like the ship of Theseus; if you change the parts it is still the same ship, if you change the structure and function it a new ship. Changing the propaganda from communism bad to communism good does not meaningfully change what a school is but changing it's purpose from indoctrination to emancipation does.
Here is an Emma Goldman Essay on schools
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This whole point just makes it sound like you were upset that you got caught cheating and plagiarizing and that everyone else was cheating too (they weren't). Like seriously how else are we supposed to interpret you shrugging off plagiarism by saying "at least it isn't rape". Good lord that sounds like a Cumtown bit. You understand why cheating is bad right? Also what's wrong with making kids be in class on time? Its really easy to do and if you are consistently late you start to fall behind the rest of the class. Its a basic skill you will need to function in all forms of society including communist ones.
First off school officially starts at 10 am, but the teachers dont start teaching until 11 am because no one shows up until then. The little kids all have a shared community teaching and learning style that they all learn best from? What are you talking about, that isn't real thing. Do you actually think schools suck because the teachers had too much control? Students are teachers? What?! Teaching is really, really hard. Students don't know how to do it. This isn't a hallmark movie where the kids are pure and wise.
I think the second version of school would at best cover 1/4th of the material in the same timeframe, with the majority of kids not bothering to learn anything that didn't immediately interest them.
Why would you want kids to learn things that don't immediately interest them? Sounds pretty authoritarian to me...
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You are right, the first point does make it sound like I'm excusing the most reprehensible acts next to plagiarism. What I'm trying to say here is that systemic rape culture isn't even taken seriously in college campuses but they will absolutely attack plagiarism despite rape being WAY worse. Sorry if I did not clarify it. I would say that cheating is definitely widespread in education because of the grading and is definitely part of the hidden curriculum in capitalist education. There are definitely failsons who got into top-tier schools partially cheating their way there, and there are definitely young kids who went to a HBCU who did everything the honest way and cut fewer corners than their white counterparts, but they end up in jobs that aren't equivalent to their white counterparts. Note that Black kids must play the rules or they'll be threatened with jail edit: and this 'playing by the book' actually segregates them into rigid manual labor, and low-level admin work which is what detention socializes them to do anyways. So even playing by the rules forces them into what dominant culture sees as low-status work. Meanwhile, white kids will end up in so-called innovative skunkworks projects.
As for schools starting later and some kids not showing up later, I was trying to demonstrate time as a social construct which was used as a way to assemble us into working schedules. Even medieval peasants didn't have such rigid schedules, so why can't a socialist society work without such rigid schedules? We don't even know what post-capitalist culture would look like after dismantling the Fordism in our head. You noticed what was wrong in my examples, just imagine the long sessions of what must be done to make socialist education a reality. We aren't even close to a post-school/school abolitionist model of thinking unless we get Fordism out of our heads!
Peasants didn't have a rigid schedule cause plants don't and looking at the sun is a shitty way to measure time so they measured time bad. We're industrialized and have been for a while, better just get used to it cause electricity rules
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Because time is a social construct that is extremely useful for organizing people. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from making time less strict. Not measuring the hours doesn't make them disappear. Recreating ways of thinking about the day won't actually change the way you live your life.
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Just because I imagine it different doesn't mean I can't imagine it. Monks also related to society by being fucking parasites. It's pretty cool making a living praying for the souls of novels so it's okay if they wage war. Those medieval chunks of time also sound a lot like a work schedule but without an accurate means of measuring time.
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I don't disagree with you at all on any point but I would say that sort of because of that we don't really need to conciously give a shit about how we measure time because of that. Like it's true but I don't think it matters.
I'm gonna contest your cheating culture. Look I went to high school with some kids who got into THE top tier schools. Cornell, Harvard, Columbia. None of those kids were cutting corners and they werent just white kids. Everyone in the school knew they worked hard, and that they deserved it. In my school, you could cheat on homework, the tests it was impossible outside of one really lazy chemistry teacher. Several people were busted for trying. I'm sure in other schools cheating is widespread but if your teachers give a shit they can squash it easily. The failsons who cheated whenever possible all went to low level state schools because, lo and behold, they sucked at SAT/ACTs. If you were a kid who didn't cheat and got good test scores you could get accepted into a decent school. Its not hard to do well in high school, the only kids who didn't do well were the ones who clearly didn't give a crap about school. Giving a shit and actually spending time on the assignments is all you need do well. Also, I've read about some bad highschools, remember that even the laziest failsons aren't truants. People who don't show up are screwed.
At my college (which wasnt a top tier one), basically the same thing. You could get away with cheating on assignments, and certain electives. But on tests in 2000+ level class? It was impossible. Multiple TAs patrolling the classroom watching students. They timed the tests in a way that you weren't going to get test questions ahead of time from peeps in other sections either. Past tests weren't a help since they were completely redone every semester. In fact teachers would usually give out past tests as practice.
If you really believe that everyone at the top is a fraud that doesn't know anything and that they cheated their way there, I'm here to say that's not true. If you think that, you went to bad schools with teachers who didn't care enough to stop the cheating. The work socialists do would help make it so there fewer bad schools.
I don't personally prefer it but get there at 10, otherwise are teachers and students just supposed to wait around and waste an hour of their life every day waiting for people to show up or should lessons just continue and late people can catch up of fall behind? Punctuality under communism is about being considerate.
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