I think this is that one survey from 2016. If I remember right it only asked for reactions to certain words, positive or negative. Whenever I see similar polls it makes me consider the average American doesn't see the terms capitalism and socialism like we do. The average person sees these as character traits, not movements or distinct economic structures. Capitalist simply means greedy businessman, nothing structural. Socialism is high taxes and government doing stuff.
There's not a lot of coherent public discourse about this.
A lot of Americans who own ZERO capital consider themselves ideological capitalists. This isn't an impossible stance. I wouldn't even say it's a hypocritical one. But it is absolutely a moronic stance born from ignorance basically like you laid out above. I'd only argue with you that a lot do not even think of it as greedy. They conflate capitalism with "freedom" and socialism with "not freedom." And that happens because of the past 100 years+ of red scare bullshit.
Whenever I see similar polls it makes me consider the average American doesn't see the terms capitalism and socialism like we do. The average person sees these as character traits, not movements or distinct economic structures. Capitalist simply means greedy businessman, nothing structural. Socialism is high taxes and government doing stuff.
I would very much agree with your assessment. I think the public discourse has failed to get the idea of structural thought into these words. It's really sad to me that while most people would totally be onboard with socialism and communism but lack the language to even understand what they actually are. I always feel like you have describe Socialism in these very obtuse ways to obfuscate what it's called to get average Americans onboard. As soon as you call it what it is, they bug out.
Well, that's propaganda in effect. But I do reject the notion that people, even my fellow dipshit Burgers, need to have socialism spoonfed to them. Not that you were advocating for that, but many do, often as a joke but not always.
Many leftists and "leftists" get caught up in this weird debate perversion/ 24/7 media cycle spin spin spin spin talking points driven thing mixed with caveats upon caveats instead unapologetically just saying shit.
I would say if advocates made it super simple like: "do you believe in democracy? Do you want things to be run as the majority of people want it to be run? Then why do you not extend that to the workplace?" Make them turn those rusty cogs and force them to consider the fact that they do not own capital. They do own no factories, they probably aren't landlords, they in fact suffer under the boot of those people. And you tell them that you simply support an economic system that says "no, those people do not get to do that. The people will decide how rents are handled and how wages are determined- not owners."
I mean it's super anecdotal but my Trump-enjoying dad (he admits he's a dumbass, but I think he finds Trump just entertaining) was pretty much fully on board with this furiously nodding his head along. I never broke the news to him that he just endorsed communism and will surely be executed beside me someday.
But seriously, you're right that the words have absolutely been poisoned. I don't think we should abandon correct terminology though. Just maybe cut the 30 minute "definitions of socialism" which include 28 minutes of "I formally renounce the atrocities of...[insert every socialist nation ever]." I get why people feel the need the need to do that, but capitalists will never renounce Jefferson, or Andrew Jackson, or Reagan, or Clinton, or Obama... etc. to include every neoliberal, liberal, fascist, etc. that has ever existed. I guess my problem is... people are cowards. They won't just speak out and say how they feel, they recoil instantly from any accusation of "supporting Xi" etc. There are good reasons to be afraid, look at what the Israeli lobbies and their little shitty Gestapo squads are doing to student protesters right now, but if people want to be on the right side of things, if that means something to them, you have to take on some risk and some pain. The pain of missing a Harvard grad school position due to disgusting essentially Nazis wanting to murder kids is nothing compared to the pain of, I dunno, being those kids and their families.
So, I dunno how I got off on that rant, but whatever. I just hope recent events radicalize people further. Some cowards will run away and some already have. But for those who truly believe in principles behind socialism and have basic humanity this isn't a challenge... it just fuels the fire.
Language is fucking us all up. I've thought a lot about this, I've talked about socialism to all sorts of people, and I think the things we are striving for are much more popular than we think but people just don't communicate well. Especially when we have been so misinformed by imperialist propaganda.
I think this is that one survey from 2016. If I remember right it only asked for reactions to certain words, positive or negative. Whenever I see similar polls it makes me consider the average American doesn't see the terms capitalism and socialism like we do. The average person sees these as character traits, not movements or distinct economic structures. Capitalist simply means greedy businessman, nothing structural. Socialism is high taxes and government doing stuff.
There's not a lot of coherent public discourse about this.
A lot of Americans who own ZERO capital consider themselves ideological capitalists. This isn't an impossible stance. I wouldn't even say it's a hypocritical one. But it is absolutely a moronic stance born from ignorance basically like you laid out above. I'd only argue with you that a lot do not even think of it as greedy. They conflate capitalism with "freedom" and socialism with "not freedom." And that happens because of the past 100 years+ of red scare bullshit.
I would very much agree with your assessment. I think the public discourse has failed to get the idea of structural thought into these words. It's really sad to me that while most people would totally be onboard with socialism and communism but lack the language to even understand what they actually are. I always feel like you have describe Socialism in these very obtuse ways to obfuscate what it's called to get average Americans onboard. As soon as you call it what it is, they bug out.
Well, that's propaganda in effect. But I do reject the notion that people, even my fellow dipshit Burgers, need to have socialism spoonfed to them. Not that you were advocating for that, but many do, often as a joke but not always.
Many leftists and "leftists" get caught up in this weird debate perversion/ 24/7 media cycle spin spin spin spin talking points driven thing mixed with caveats upon caveats instead unapologetically just saying shit.
I would say if advocates made it super simple like: "do you believe in democracy? Do you want things to be run as the majority of people want it to be run? Then why do you not extend that to the workplace?" Make them turn those rusty cogs and force them to consider the fact that they do not own capital. They do own no factories, they probably aren't landlords, they in fact suffer under the boot of those people. And you tell them that you simply support an economic system that says "no, those people do not get to do that. The people will decide how rents are handled and how wages are determined- not owners."
I mean it's super anecdotal but my Trump-enjoying dad (he admits he's a dumbass, but I think he finds Trump just entertaining) was pretty much fully on board with this furiously nodding his head along. I never broke the news to him that he just endorsed communism and will surely be executed beside me someday.
But seriously, you're right that the words have absolutely been poisoned. I don't think we should abandon correct terminology though. Just maybe cut the 30 minute "definitions of socialism" which include 28 minutes of "I formally renounce the atrocities of...[insert every socialist nation ever]." I get why people feel the need the need to do that, but capitalists will never renounce Jefferson, or Andrew Jackson, or Reagan, or Clinton, or Obama... etc. to include every neoliberal, liberal, fascist, etc. that has ever existed. I guess my problem is... people are cowards. They won't just speak out and say how they feel, they recoil instantly from any accusation of "supporting Xi" etc. There are good reasons to be afraid, look at what the Israeli lobbies and their little shitty Gestapo squads are doing to student protesters right now, but if people want to be on the right side of things, if that means something to them, you have to take on some risk and some pain. The pain of missing a Harvard grad school position due to disgusting essentially Nazis wanting to murder kids is nothing compared to the pain of, I dunno, being those kids and their families.
So, I dunno how I got off on that rant, but whatever. I just hope recent events radicalize people further. Some cowards will run away and some already have. But for those who truly believe in principles behind socialism and have basic humanity this isn't a challenge... it just fuels the fire.
Language is fucking us all up. I've thought a lot about this, I've talked about socialism to all sorts of people, and I think the things we are striving for are much more popular than we think but people just don't communicate well. Especially when we have been so misinformed by imperialist propaganda.