Most of my life I've been very, very unintestered in philosphy but I've recently developped a curiosity for some philosophical concepts like "structuralism" and I'm a bit curious about what the fuck type of political philosphy the Greeks developped after a friend told me they were reading Aristotle for their poli-sci class. What should I read? No self-help books please and thank you.

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    ·
    3 years ago

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  • Chomsky [comrade/them]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Pretty broad topic. You could start with some plato. Republic is actually a pretty easy read.

    • toledosequel [none/use name]
      hexagon
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      edit-2
      3 years ago

      I'm assuming that's a political document? Thanks I'll read that, any similar things from that time-period?

      • Chomsky [comrade/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        It's a political document in a very loose sense. It is a thought experiment about what the ideal society would look like.

        Another suggestion of something you could read on the opposite side of history that is pretty essential imo to understanding non marxist modern academia is foucault. Discipline and Punish for example is another book that is pretty approachable.

        Just trying to think of things that are informative, but also approachable and pleasant to read.

      • blly509 [he/him,any]
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        3 years ago

        Early greek stuff is super rewarding if you have a group or instructor. The Republic and The Apology by Plato, and portions of Nichomachean Ethics by Aristotle are the big ones I read in my philosophy class and it was very interesting. Highly recommend reading The Apology and then watching the The New Trial Of Socrates to see all the interesting historical context

  • pepe_silvia96 [he/him]
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    3 years ago

    If you wanna jump straight to Hegel with me, read Zizek's the sublime object of ideology. help me understand this shit. :zizek-fuck:

    • Eldungeon [none/use name]
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      3 years ago

      I've often started reading things I was more interested in instead of starting from the beginning of history and it seems to pay off mostly. I remember some libs discouraging me from reading this or that book because of gate keeping basically if you're interested in any topic in particular - read it. You can always read and digest above and beyond your own studies. Plus science and philosophy are literally built upon collective knowledge no need for everyone to reinvent the wheel.

  • comi [he/him]
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    3 years ago

    History of western philosophy by russell, you can find organic development of philosophy there

    • Mardoniush [she/her]
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      3 years ago

      Yeah, note he's a lot better on pre 19th century stuff though. Has some pretty cringe takes on later stuff.

      • comi [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Meh, every western philosopher has cringe takes post-marx, as they tip-toe around him straight into positivism/structuralism/post-modernism

        • Mardoniush [she/her]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Thats true, and at least naive Positivism/Logical Empiricism had the good grace to prove itself wrong.

          • comi [he/him]
            ·
            3 years ago

            Sis, third wave of positivism is different this time, I promise, just a little bit of positivism, I swear.

  • jabrd [he/him]
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    3 years ago

    What are you interested in? Philosophy covers a lot of shit. I'm not the /lit/ type to tell you to just start with the greeks and work your way through the entire western canon

      • JuneFall [none/use name]
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        edit-2
        3 years ago

        Baudrillard

        Then I have the perfect clip for you! Its like 10 seconds long, the lecture in itself is long and winded, but gives a good conception about Baudrillard.

        For Baudrillard there are a few concepts that help in vulgar forms a lot:

        • Hegelian dialectics, in the sense that a) there are only non-smokers cause smokers exist, cause else the term as social relation would be meaningless b.) the maser-slave dialectic, which means that actually the master is powerless and the slaves have the power - cause they do actually do stuff, much like workers and capitalists (it is enough to read this paragraph though) c) we ignore the thesis, synthesis antithesis things for now.

        • Marxist alienation, the worker who has to labour and whose productive capacities gets exploited by the employer who only pays him a slight wage, not the full result of his work. In a very vulgar form that people feel bad, cause they don't relate to the real social relation in a way they want to and in a way that acknowledges the real relation.

        • The map is not the territory, which means that if you have a map and try to navigate with it, but it leads you into a lake and you drown ( like google maps does). Though the story about the map that was the empire is important to read.

        • there is a bit of Lacan's theory that helps (which doesn't mean that Lacan created all concepts of it, but it got its name and we take from him). He says there are three orders (whatever that means), there is the real which isn't what is the imaginary or the symbolic, and is alien and can never known, the symbolic which got some language elements in it and lastly the imaginary which is in parts related to movies which actually aren't a reality (except for the light on the screen). However to try to understand more and what those terms exactly mean and what Lacan is up to - turned out for me useless. The idea that you can use this linked entities was helpful though to understand parts of Baudrillard. There are three intertwined things and the real can't be known.

        • Plato's cave allegory is often referenced and helps here, it also seems like an archaic version of some things Lacan and Baudrillard developed further.

        • Then there is the idea that you can't know the real thing. Even if you would see the thing whose shadow is cast upon the Platonean wall, you wouldn't real see it. This is true in multiple ways. Your eyes only detect some light photons altered by it, your perception models and alters it, as does your brain and the material stuff going on, that you are. Furthermore, no exploration of the thing would reveal the thing itself (not in the idealist way, that there is a perfect thing whose shadow is projected onto the world), but that the real is an entirely different thing than your conscious, it is alien and removed from you. Doesn't matter in your day to day life much, though, you enjoy a nice cake, even when you can't get true to the real, right?

        • I will ignore everything about conscious(ness).

        • Then there is the thing in the digital age that differs to the time before. Today you can do free (effectively free) copies of things and their representation in a specific set of bits can be moved around your device's storage, which renders the meaning of original and copy irrelevant. There is also a division of image from audio and such, even if they are combined at a later point, they were separated at first and thus the choice to put them together is a choice and constructed. If you can play something recorded then it isn't the recorded, it is a simulation of what was recorded. It isn't the real thing what was recorded, it is something different.

        • Baudrillard now says (I am wrong here, cause I don't know much Baudrillard) that we are living in a time in which there isn't a real, but also a hyperreal (fuck anti-collectivist Adam Curtis, though). It is best to read those two paragraphs about what simulation and what simulacra are. Today Baudrillard says we aren't able to see which is real, which is representation, which is simulation and which is simulacra (something simulated that doesn't even exist in reality, but it is accepted as something that is). In a sense "the map and the territory aren't the same, though it is the territory that rots and the map that is pristine and what is left".

        You notice that I mentioned no female philosophers, which is a problem. Also: it is irrelevant what I wrote, philosophy isn't having the names down or having read up concepts, it is about enjoying thinking (and seeing how it relates to the world and how you can change it).

  • JuneFall [none/use name]
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    edit-2
    3 years ago

    I would suggest reading Existential Comics and their description (start with the Marxist ones if you can click on persons). Honestly 80% of philosophy stuff is having a feel for who and when some stereotypes about philosophers, philosophy and such are thrown around.

    About the Greeks: they had some interesting stuff and are in Eurozentric academic education the foundation of philosophy and as such held in high regards. Though they have concepts like "philosopher kings" and it is good that there is an elite that rules over the people and slaves. A lot of what is academic held in high regard is stuff that ruling elites found helpful. So remember that at any point there were multitudes of philosophies that were marginalized, ignored or purged.

    Philosophy is also found in real movements and by real authors (those today not seldomly include intersectionality and or the stories of marginalized). Different to Kant who was a racist that did the same walk every lunch and had people taking care of preparing his lunches. Consequently his philosophy has no problem with racist stuff, like the rule of one race over the other (cause they are civilized and have to force the others to become enlightened).

    In a sense when you talk about real problems with your friends and concepts it is philosophy in a more real sense than what liberals or austrian marxket libertarians do. Marx's wrote in his 11th thesis about Feuerbach: "The philosophers of the world only interpreted the world differently, the point, however, is to change it".

    Enjoy your intellectual travel, learning is good.

    Existential Comic's " How to learn philosophy as an amateur " is good

  • spez_hole [he/him,they/them]
    ·
    3 years ago

    tbh, and this is very pseud of me, the way of most reward is to start with the greeks and work your way through the christians and then the moderns. western philosophy generally has a linear and coherent history imho, not sure about non-western philosophy

    • blly509 [he/him,any]
      ·
      3 years ago

      I'm taking an eastern philosophy class this semester and holy shit the professor sucks and it's such a shame because I really wanted to dig into it with some active guidance. It's rough going from a class on ancient Greek philosophy taught by someone that was frequently very critical of Plato and Aristotle in interesting ways, to someone who's legally changing their name because of how much they love Hindu mysticism and won't engage in "wrong" answers to work towards some point but just dismisses them as wrong until someone spits out something close to what they were expecting/said last class.

  • Yanqui_UXO [any]
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    edit-2
    3 years ago

    If you are interested in structuralism, I do really recommend starting with a selection from de Saussure's Course in General Linguistics . It may sound strange but it actually isn't: there'd be no structuralism without that book, and you'll see it's not a typical linguistics book with enormous implications for all kinds of disciplines.

  • Hexbear2 [any]
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    edit-2
    3 years ago

    Bertrand Russell, in defence of idleness--it's a short read.

    Also read some classics like Dao De Jing, Plato's Cave/Republic, etc.

    Also read some western era "enlightenment" like Bacon, Kant, Locke, etc, but you should also read some left wing critique of these philosophies, it will help to view these critically from a left wing perspective.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intellectuals_of_the_Enlightenment

  • Pavlichenko_Fan_Club [comrade/them]
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    3 years ago

    Oh the concept of structure? That's easy!

    1. There must be at least two heterogeneous series, one of which is defined as the signifier and the other as the signified.
    2. Each of these series is made up of terms that exist only through their relationship with one another.
    3. two heterogeneous series [converging] toward a paradoxical element, which is their 'differentiator,'
    (from Guattari's essay *Machine and Structure*)
    

    What is there not to understand?

    No but being serious you should browse around https://plato.stanford.edu/ (aka the SEP) and see what interests you. It's got a bit of an analytic focus, but it is an amazing source nonetheless.

      • Pavlichenko_Fan_Club [comrade/them]
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        edit-2
        3 years ago

        The quote specifically comes Guattari paraphrasing Deleuze's Difference and Repetition. Saussure makes it seem simple, but there is a reason so much ink has been spilled over this. Fascinating stuff really.

  • Llituro [he/him, they/them]
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    3 years ago

    It might be helpful to look for some kind of introductory text on the broad terms and phrases used in western philosophy. Reading is hard, and most of these thinkers were using normal words in jargony ways and assuming that the reader was well familiar with the contemporary literature at the time of writing. I strongly disagree with starting way back and working forwards. If you want to read Aristotle that's cool, it should just be because you want to actually read Aristotle. Otherwise you'll just get bogged down trying to see the big picture development of thousands of years of thought. If you get worried that you don't understand a point that he's making because he's likely referring to some aspect of contemporary Greek life, civics, or philosophy that you don't know, there's always scholarship that helps explain on the interwebs. Lectures and stuff too.

  • P00h_Beard [comrade/them]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Get this book. https://www.abebooks.com/Political-Philosophy-Essential-Texts-3rd-edition/30856341530/bd?cm_mmc=ggl--US_Shopp_Trade--naa-_-naa&gclid=CjwKCAjwr_uCBhAFEiwAX8YJgZLdDUdt-mrr912yz_mpuHDrMHPOELadtlmelAcKW35y3MWGUQuoIBoC_X0QAvD_BwE