Damn West coasters, way to lay the groundwork for Wrath Month.
"From Stonewall a brick and Portland an axe, respect our pride or expect our wrath"
Damn West coasters, way to lay the groundwork for Wrath Month.
"From Stonewall a brick and Portland an axe, respect our pride or expect our wrath"
see that sus three arrows
The radlib anti-fash thing?
It stands for “anti-capitalism, anti-monarchism & anti-communism”. It was used a lot by the SPD and Rosa killers.
:af: is definitely better
what's really funny is that years ago the Timbers fans got in a dispute with their ownership and the league over the three arrows flag while at the same time Rapids supporters were waving antifa flags and had them draped over the front rows that whole season but no one pays attention to us so the league never cared lol. We even had them up during a nationally televised playoff game that went to penalties in front of one of the flags lmao
you can see it through the net here https://youtu.be/n-dd7PaZHV4?t=8007
Haha, awesome! Caught a great side-on shot of it at 2:15:08
yeah bottom right corner of the crowd. one of the arrows stands for opposing communism
Anti-facist, anti-monarchist, anti-communist :brainworms:
Edit: Wiki link Weimar era SDP paramilitary arm originated the logo. :yea:
ah yes, the government we should replicate, weimar germany :galaxy-brain:
Lol dorksI take it back, I'm officially cool with their use of it. They fought the league trying to ban it because of its association with antifascism
https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/08/26/what-happens-when-the-timbers-army-stops-cheering-national-media-coverage-and-an-allegedly-angry-owner/
Wish they fought for a better symbol and not the logo of Rosakillers
Basically no one involved in that struggle even knew who Rosa Luxemburg was. It was a fight to get MLS to allow us any antifascist symbol.
But the one the allowed and approved is the anti-communist one. Curious.
Because it was the one in use. It would have been weird for us to fight for a symbol that no one in the league used.
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Why are they using symbols they don’t understand? They need to be educated
Because they've redefined the symbol in the context of modern struggle. Concerns about its past association with the SPD are irrelevant to its modern users. It means "If you're fash and show up in our supporter's section, we're gonna beat you up and eject you."
Hard disagree, it shows a tolerance of reaction. To me this sounds like Azov apologia about how they redefined ancient runes.
If someone is indifferent to projecting anti-communist messages with their symbols and don’t correct themselves after they learn, I will never trust them fully as they will apparently be ok with feds murdering me too if I wear a hammer and sickle.
This is the thin edge of the fed wedge, and how less educated activists in the west are often corralled into left anti-communism
Utter nonsense. The meaning of any symbol is mutable and the meaning of the specific symbol is mutated. You don't know these people, I do.
Nice well I’m doing my next protest in full swastikas and American flags then. I’m gonna reclaim these symbols.
Yeah, that's a particularly stupid argument and you know it. A symbol that has no public meaning is different from one that does. You can easily imbue a symbol that has no meaning. You cannot do so with one that has an existing public meaning.
No, you and a few thousand other leftists do not a publicly established meaning make.
The symbol has a specific meaning in left circles, and everyone knows it’s leftpunching and succ. This isn’t the general public using this symbol, it’s a specific faction of very rad radlibs, a subsection of antifa. They should be educated on their cringe, and if they refuse to swap to a better symbol, treated with utmost suspicion
Uh, it's a pretty general public, buddy. Again, you do not in any way understand the people you are talking about.
Define what you are even arguing about because we are going around in circles.
To the general public who watch soccer: either they won’t notice it or they will look it up and see it’s anti-communist and anti-monarchist and be like “weird”.
To the leftists who recognize the symbol it has a specific meaning of leftpunching and succerry. The people who know this and keep using the symbol are sus as hell, don’t tell them your contact info.
I'm telling you that the people who are putting up that symbol at MLS games would go full :jesse-wtf: if you started ranting at them about this subject. Then they'd ignore you, because it's just the most common symbol that antifascists organize around in the region. The supporters' groups are 100% full of radlibs, and I don't pick fights with people who are willing to punch Nazis with me, let alone over things that happened a century ago and reference a context that no longer matters.
And I’m telling you those people flying that flag will cheer when the Chuds dumps your body off a bridge and call it a step forward for socialism unless they are educated
Yeah, again, you know nothing. The people we are discussing will follow whoever is put in front of them. They are not deeply political, they're just willing to beat the crap out of Nazis.
Maybe you should stick to harassing me in private messages to avoid undermining your point by demonstrating that you are not listening at all.
Yes and what is currently in front of them is a bunch of feds and social democrats wearing anti-communist symbol. No, I think everyone should be able to openly see you apologia for reaction and people sheepdogging budding radlibs deeper into reaction
There’s no reason they can’t beat up Nazis under the red and black flag, or under a red flag, or a black flag. There is no need for anti-communist social democrat flags
I just have priorities for organizing with and educating radlibs that are more important than a flag in a soccer-stadium. Trust me when I say that the history of the Iron Front is well beyond the level of political education these people need. A lot of them still need to be taught that profit is theft from the product of labor.
To be clear, if you're trying to make me feel ashamed, you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm far more likely to wind you up more if you keep making an ass of yourself over something this irrelevant than back down.
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I mean, again, you're just not reading anything I wrote, presumably because you think winning an online debate over absolutely nothing of importance is more important than any kind of actual engagement.
You're adorable. Wasting your time. But adorable nonetheless.
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You realize that your (frankly, underwhelming) attempt at bullying makes me far more likely to just leave my posts up out of spite, yes? Maybe you could try talking to my manager?
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Sure thing, cutie. That's definitely a thing that's gonna happen and matter.
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You overestimate the organization of American social democrats pretty intensely.
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Anticommunism is bad. It's also part of the milieu we currently operate in, and we need to prioritize fights that matter over trying to convince a bunch of soccer fans to use a different antifascist symbol.
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They don’t need to be perfect and pure, just literally anything other than reactionary anti-communists. That symbol is reactionary and anti-communist, it’s literally one of the arrows. There are tons of antifascist symbols and groups and colors to organize under that don’t have this issue, yet they all seemed to pick the worst one possible. Weird how this just keeps happening
You don’t even need to get into rosakilling, the mere fact that one of the arrows of their three arrows symbol is anti-communist is enough that nobody should ever use it on the left. It is inherently sectarian, baked into the very concept of the flag.
The rosakilling is for you and the other users here to realize the tendency you are protecting.
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I mean, if folks want to ensure that soccer fans think all communists are fascists, they're gonna have a hard time coming up with a better way of doing so than by accosting well-meaning libs who don't understand anything over antifascist organizing.
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that's cool and all but half of the people flying the three arrows consider most communists to be fascists, so uhh yeah.
More than half of the people flying that flag in a football stadium don't know what the SPD is and don't care.
I'm not talking about the SPD or Rosa in this case. ask them what they think of socialist states, past and present, ask them about Cuba or their opinions about the DPRK, ask them what they think the CPC's 95 million members or any other communist movement outside of the west for that matter.
They're going to hold shitty radlib opinions, of course. What I can't figure out is why you think there's any malice-aforethought in the use of a symbol most of them don't know any meaning for outside of 'antifascism'.
my point is that they don't need to know, or care, where this symbol comes from, the fact is that they are already acting undistinguishable from anti-communist by attacking or shunning other communists because they think they are ''redfash'', that, and their use of anti-communist symbols makes them, for a lack of better of better words, sus.
I doubt most of these people would even know the term "redfash". That's some highly-online shit that normal people wouldn't know from a poodle.
we can argue wether they'd call them Redfash, fascists, authoritians, commies or tankies all day long, but my point has already been made.
I'm just saying that you should consider them sus by default in the current climate, instead of making it about the symbol.
It’s precisely the lack of forethought and empty headed hatred of socialism that is dangerous.
Okay, but if you think the radicalization process is through rubbing their faces in history they are not going to care about, you should never be allowed to engage in propaganda campaigns, because, again, these people have no political education.
Who said anything about rubbing their faces? I’m rubbing your face. Because you are supposedly a socialist, and you should know better. You start out easy on people who are ignorant and try to get them into an educational program in a revolutionary organization if you can, ideally. Or short of that sell them on sale pitches until they are ready for that.
This whole “the proles are too stupid to know anything about history” combined with the “proles inherently know what to do just tell them they are being exploited” leads to Pol Pot (if they ever somehow gained power lol). We need education and discipline and leadership, and it’s not paternalist to say so.
You are not ignorant, you have no excuse for this apologia
Ding ding ding!
The Iron Front campaign was to show them that corporations can be beaten by organizing. That lesson was more important at the time. Individually, I tend to decline to use an Iron Front symbol (tend to, because if the symbol is going to rally antifascists during an actually issue on the street, I'll carry the damn thing), and the ones who are ready to hear why will get more than a "I'm not a fan of its history", while the others will get that message.
The proles aren't too stupid to know anything about history, they just don't care. The distinction is significant.
Explicitly Anti-communist fed-run synthetic left “movements” actually are a pipeline to real revolutionary communism, not a release valve back into the system. This very advanced pipeline technique is only available in the imperial core/west, which is why we have been so successful at organizing revolutionary parties
:very-intelligent:
inb4 accusations of sectarianism from the lady defending the iron front rosa-killing flag with the anti-communist arrow
You're not sectarian, you're just an obsessive with a very convenient ability to not read what is actually written and jump to totally unrelated subjects out of something that is either paranoia or a lack of the ability to connect your arguments. That's not the same thing. Your self-crit should be focussed on prioritization and communication, not sectarianism.
I haven’t been jumping to unrelated things, everything has been directly related. I’m just better at putting the dots together than you it seems and seeing the patterns within history and societies
I have an outside perspective on the west and it makes it a lot easier to see things like this without getting emotionally and narratively attached to a reactionary symbol
So then your shortcoming is communicating what you mean, because you certainly seem to jump from topic to topic as convenient and completely disregard what was actually said in order to castigate your audience with said jumps. Again, you're not a sectarian, you just aren't communicating well.
Mad that you couldn’t get me to agree that anti-communism is fine actually if we are doing it to sell out and water down our message for stupid proles
No, just trying to give you constructive feedback, because you aren't as effective as you think you are. I assume you currently feel very powerless and are trying to give yourself a sense of power by winning meaningless online debates. That isn't going to happen, but if you communicate better, you'll be more likely to find a sense of power that is actually constructive.
Shut up lib
Well, there's something to be said for attempting brute-force bullying, too, I guess. It isn't going to work, either, but changing strategies makes sense under the circumstances.
I’ll be the bad tankie, you be the good radlib. I’ll bully while you coax with honey and revisionism
Look, I'm not gonna kinkshame, but you need to work on consent before trying to set a scene. You're gonna need a safeword, anyway, because I'm whipping your ass.
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Thanks for the concern but I am able to use my phone sometimes at work, it’s not like I would be doing anything terribly productive elsewise. Miss me with that tone shit
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western left communities need a hardline anti-imperialist asshole to keep their tendency to drift into chauvinism in check and counter-signal the constant influx of natoid radlibs (which are far more prevalent and numerous than hardliners like me)
I’m playing my role in this ecosystem, and if I am banned another based comrade will grow to fill my vital niche
Man you really need to chill the fuck out with the hostility.
You've been banned before and you're going to get banned again if you don't start treating people with respect. You aren't winning people over with this edgy bullshit.
But the bullying worked. 2/3 anti-communists felt shame and deleted their comments. There are 2 less libs here than earlier today. You can ban me when I’m wrong, then there will be 3 less.
Also, I have never been banned on this comm before not sure what you are talking about. That would be ban evasion and against the rules.
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If educating someone with the fact that they are following a counterrevolutionary tendency led by some very sketchy people is “impossible” then forget about them learning about proletarian revolution, Marxism or literally anything. Defeatist and anti-intellectual strains going on here
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All radlibs are going to be like cats meandering into a warzone without the revolutionary science. We are not born knowing everything that is needed, the accumulated knowledge and history of the past is needed to guide our future actions and learn from mistakes. If it’s impossible for western radlibs to learn from the past and correct then the dialectic cannot happen and you will stagnate in reaction until collapse
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Ok I’m fine with being an asshole. so when someone says “hey anti-communist fascist militants used that symbol to kill communist leaders, it represents anti-communism” you say “damn that sucks, won’t use or defend it again”.
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Three arrows is principally used as an antifascist symbol by the people I know and they’re not anticommunists at all. It’s just easy to tag shit with it and the proud boys fucking hate it. Excellent for spray painting over swastikas