It honestly does suck a little to read people talking about how I'm inherently bad and how I deserve to die and I don't have culture etc. I don't really complain about it because I get it. It's not like I face discrimination in real life. But like some of it does feel pretty shitty when I see it on a daily basis here.
Whiteness is more of a cultural indicator than being dependant on your skin colour. Others have mentioned that the definition of "white" can expand and contract as fascists demand. So like, when people are railing against white people, we're talking about people who actively identify as white and conform to white culture, like generally supporting capitalism, being unconcerned with or happy with racism, acting like any slight against white people is discrimination equal to real racism, etc.
People with pale skin can and have been discriminated against, but never because they're white. I've had English people call me a terrorist and a savage for being Irish, not because I have pale skin.
Yes, 'white' (and of course 'black') is absolutely a nonsense concept that expands and contracts arbitrarily, but race and whiteness isn't (in practice) a self-identity. It is imposed upon people by racists, and has been institutionalized and normalized so much that it's unavoidable. One can't just say 'I'm not white' or 'I'm not black' in a way effectively recognized by society at large. The point being, people are visually identified as being 'white' or 'black' through things including skin tone. 99+% can look at a license photo and will decide 'white' or 'black'. It is a term with racial implications. A light-skinned Frank who is anti-racist, anti-capitalist and anti-state will be considered 'white' by almost everyone, just as someone with darker skin will be labelled 'black' even if they are a US Republican, pro-capitalist, pro-police racist. So when someone says 'kill white people', why shouldn't a person considered 'white' by society see that as a sign of distrust?
I've had English people call me a terrorist and a savage for being Irish, not because I have pale skin.
May I assume "English people" is here referring to people generally considered white? This may factor into why they don't use whiteness as an insult against native Irish.
The Troubles and British colonization of Ireland are probably going to be far more present in assholes's minds than race in this situation, since my impression is most British people consider Irish people white these days (as you said, the definition expands), even if there are still specific anti-Irish racist tendencies.
One can't just say 'I'm not white' or 'I'm not black' in a way effectively recognized by society at large
Ironically, this argument only works for black communities because many black people are disempowered in terms of self-identity and the means to socially and economically enforce that self-determined identification
But for the rest of us the US census bureau had to create entire new categories (Hispanic white) and rework definitions (adding the entire MENA region to white) because people can and do effectively self-identify in terms of race
Racists have alot of power to impose whiteness and its various exclusions on others, but they are not omnipotent, that's why issues such as passing or non-passing, colorism in non-white communities, and the historical situations with Slavs, Jews, Irish and Italians exist, large swathes of the world challenge you're supposition that they can't practice a type of self-sorting when it comes to European racial codification
That's why it makes no sense to do what you're doing and try to reinforce the "imposition upon people by racists" as you called it, hey the racists imposed it, so we all have to get offended on behalf of people who strongly identify with codified European Phrenology? No fuck that, they also imposed capitalism, should we all start identifying as capitalists because our lives are defined by capitalist social relations outside our control, I mean plenty do and they'd take your argument and apply it to all sorts of things they'd want to essentialize, gender, religion, caste, national identities
so we all have to get offended on behalf of people who strongly identify with codified European Phrenology?
But my point is that people who don't give a fuck about that identity are still subject to it. Whiteness is an ingrained social phenomenon. It's in the US census!
A person who doesn't consider themselves white is still considered white by a society, regardless of mass groups like entire nationalities/races to move between classification or determine new classes. Yes, there is (for lack of a better work) mobility of races between classes, but that doesn't change that typical people will look at another person and decide if they are white or not, and that other person's opinion or lack of one doesn't matter. If a light-skinned European-American puts 'Black' on their census form, this has approximately 0 effect on anything.
should we all start identifying as capitalists because our lives are defined by capitalist social relations outside our control
No, the analogue would be that even if we decide to identity as socialists, we still live within capitalist social relations imposed on us, until we overcome that system. Until we overcome whiteness, we are subject to our society's (dynamic) interpretation of it. An individual does not have the transformative power necessary to change their own imposed whiteness class, even if large groups do over time.
But my point is that people who don't give a fuck about that identity are still subject to it. Whiteness is an ingrained social phenomenon. It's in the US census!
I'm not disputing that reality, I'm disputing your response to that fact
A person who doesn't consider themselves white is still considered white by a society
Not me, I don't identify as white and society at large doesn't see me as white unless I happen to pass on any given day, but the US census considers me white and a certain delusional minority of my ehtnic in-group consider me and themselves white, and I'm not an anomaly, this is the reality for so many ethnic groups who don't fall cleanly into this thing you present as being so cleanly divided
That's why I said it's ironic, cause your argument only really applies to dark skinned black people who don't have the economic and social power to overcome this kind of codification
But for the rest of us the US census bureau had to create entire new categories (Hispanic white) and rework definitions (adding the entire MENA region to white) because people can and do effectively self-identify in terms of race
Most of the time white people say "I'm not white, I'm ________," they are justifiably clowned on. If a white guy from middle Illinois checks "Hispanic white" on the census and then goes to a Hispanic community saying he's Hispanic, what's the reception going to be like?
Usually it's "I'm not just American, I'm ________" and then they get justifiably clowned on, but that's because Americans think genes make culture
If a white guy from middle Illinois checks "Hispanic white" on the census and then goes to a Hispanic community saying he's Hispanic, what's the reception going to be like?
And when he tells them he's not related to any Hispanic people, he doesn't speak Spanish, he's never been south of Missouri -- that he's just some white guy from Illinois -- will the reply be "well you checked the box, so sure"? Or will it be some mix of laughter and maybe something along the lines of "shut up, cracker"?
It's wild to me we're going back and forth over something as easily observable as "people will assign you a race and not everyone can change that perception."
"people will assign you a race and not everyone can change that perception."
What back and forth? I never said "EVERYONE" can change that perception, I've literally stated three times in this thread dark skinned black people cannot do that, also that hypothetical Illinois patty of yours could have maintained the perception if he hadn't hypnotically opened his mouth and told all those hypothetical Hispanics (none of whom are hypothetically white) that he wasn't Hispanic, again showing that in real life this stuff is more about perception than folks looking like this or looking like that
Some white people say "yeah kind of sucks to be insulted for being white." You ask them why they identify with whiteness. They say they don't, and they realize race is bullshit, but most of society treats them as white and calls them white anyway.
I don't see any way to dispute that last part. How most people treat you certainly doesn't change because you can check a different box on a form.
Well I'd dispute it by telling them to get over it, because society doesn't treat people "as white", like it's some sort of burden placed on people who identify with whiteness, on the otherhand society does treat people "as non-white" when they don't pass, that's a different story
Nonetheless, I can't just "opt out" of being white unless I fucking lie like Lying Liz Wrecker Warren, and even then I will still be white just like she was still white and society will privilege us as being white all the same. I despise whiteness, but I am still objectively part of the white population and probably will be until I die because I am deep within the shifting boundary of who is designated as white.
Do you build your entire identity around being "white" though? Or are you a person with actual hobbies and interests?
It doesn't upset me because I might be white, but that doesn't mean anything. It only means something if someone is so pathetic and empty that their lack of melanin is the only noteworthy thing about them.
I didn't mean it like that, more like, "whiteness" is defined more by what it isn't than what it is. It's an in-group that defines itself by not being a part of the out-group. Italians are "white" for now, but weren't 30 years ago or so. Irish people weren't white for a very long time, despite being some of the most pale people in the world.
"White" people don't have a "culture" because "white culture" doesn't exist. White ethnicities have cultures, but "white" is meaningless. A lot of people in colonial nations latch onto "whiteness" to be a part of the "in group." We should oppose this sort of thing and encourage people to celebrate their culture rather than trying to smash it all into some empty homogeneous "white" culture.
Oh, I was thinking more of my own country, Italians were our vilified group of immigrants until the 90s (then it switch to Chinese immigrants, then Muslims)
I mean I get all that, but at the end of the day, that's not the sort of framework that is salient. It's not even that big of a deal, it just wears on you after a while.
Sorry if it made it seem like I was invalidating your feelings there. It doesn't wear on me, but that doesn't mean other people aren't worn out by it. I do have a lot of contempt and loathing for people with strong "white" identities though, so I don't mind being "collateral damage" when they are getting made fun of.
I think thats fair, especially when its some rich suburban white kid with liberal parents telling you youre bad because youre white and they just read about it for the first time on reddit
All of that is true. However, a white person rejecting “whiteness” does not prevent others from attributing that identity to them anyway, any more than someone else can prevent society treating them as nonwhite. If someone starts shooting people they view as white, then all of your reasoning means nothing.
'Whiteness' is a label assigned by society, not self-identity. I think race is absolute nonsense and also don't identify as black nor white, that doesn't stop people assigning it to me when they see me outside. And if someone says they want to kill people based off of their own interpretation of white or black, our self-identity or lack of one means nothing.
Like you, the comment itself doesn't insult me because it's not about a group I identify as, but the normalization of conditional racism here absolutely does concerm me.
I grew up around mostly hispanic and black people and i understood whiteness to not really mean your skin color but the culture/class dynamics. Theres people who mean your skin but theyre ignorable.
I feel like my friends and I were always some other third thing that has its foot in a lot of other things. Because we werent rednecks, we werent first gen polish immigrants nor were we middle class suburbia nor were we rich white devils. Were still white but the attachment to the label is very loose.
Getting upset about people mocking your whiteness is kind of a litmus test to see how you view the world and what youve experienced.
But also the people here who are the loudest about whiteness just found out about it, you dont have to take everyone seriously. I also find the self-flagellation kind of pathetic and for liberals.
I kind of get what you are saying but, as a white person, I think it sucks a lot more being cultureless than seeing people remark on my being cultureless. They recognize the indignity of it, whereas white norms seem to prefer its members be empty husks fit only for consuming and spite.
Why do you identify as white tho? The US census bureau classifies me as "white" but I've never felt even the barest twinge of identification with that fiction and I can pass
i'm not sure what identifying as white means but cops think i'm white and it seems like i have white privilege so for eeoc purposes or whatever i'm a honkey and i'm not sure checking "other" or "prefer not to say" is meaningful
Basically when you observe terms like White American or American (I'm assuming you're American sorry) which label do you connect with more, which one looms largest in your awareness? When you see a group of white nationalists march in the streets on TV, even if you have a negative reaction, do words like "we", "us", "me" pepper your internal monologue when observing those groups of people?
That's what I mean by identifying, not simply as some detached intellectual understanding of the perception other people have of you, but as a personnel, emotional, and social awareness of yourself
i'm pretty down on my nationality too. there's christian dominionist freaks who loudly identify as their religious affiliation their gender and their citizenship in some order and i'm over here primarily identifying as "person". america is trash and needs to be thrown away, to put it mildly.
when i see things like the nazi march in ohio it's "wish i was there on a roof with a rifle"
It honestly does suck a little to read people talking about how I'm inherently bad and how I deserve to die and I don't have culture etc. I don't really complain about it because I get it. It's not like I face discrimination in real life. But like some of it does feel pretty shitty when I see it on a daily basis here.
mmmhhhhmmmmhhhh, i cant make memes edit the tone of this is light teasing.
Whiteness is more of a cultural indicator than being dependant on your skin colour. Others have mentioned that the definition of "white" can expand and contract as fascists demand. So like, when people are railing against white people, we're talking about people who actively identify as white and conform to white culture, like generally supporting capitalism, being unconcerned with or happy with racism, acting like any slight against white people is discrimination equal to real racism, etc.
People with pale skin can and have been discriminated against, but never because they're white. I've had English people call me a terrorist and a savage for being Irish, not because I have pale skin.
The irony of britbongs calling anyone savages.
Yes, 'white' (and of course 'black') is absolutely a nonsense concept that expands and contracts arbitrarily, but race and whiteness isn't (in practice) a self-identity. It is imposed upon people by racists, and has been institutionalized and normalized so much that it's unavoidable. One can't just say 'I'm not white' or 'I'm not black' in a way effectively recognized by society at large. The point being, people are visually identified as being 'white' or 'black' through things including skin tone. 99+% can look at a license photo and will decide 'white' or 'black'. It is a term with racial implications. A light-skinned Frank who is anti-racist, anti-capitalist and anti-state will be considered 'white' by almost everyone, just as someone with darker skin will be labelled 'black' even if they are a US Republican, pro-capitalist, pro-police racist. So when someone says 'kill white people', why shouldn't a person considered 'white' by society see that as a sign of distrust?
May I assume "English people" is here referring to people generally considered white? This may factor into why they don't use whiteness as an insult against native Irish.
The Troubles and British colonization of Ireland are probably going to be far more present in assholes's minds than race in this situation, since my impression is most British people consider Irish people white these days (as you said, the definition expands), even if there are still specific anti-Irish racist tendencies.
Ironically, this argument only works for black communities because many black people are disempowered in terms of self-identity and the means to socially and economically enforce that self-determined identification
But for the rest of us the US census bureau had to create entire new categories (Hispanic white) and rework definitions (adding the entire MENA region to white) because people can and do effectively self-identify in terms of race
Racists have alot of power to impose whiteness and its various exclusions on others, but they are not omnipotent, that's why issues such as passing or non-passing, colorism in non-white communities, and the historical situations with Slavs, Jews, Irish and Italians exist, large swathes of the world challenge you're supposition that they can't practice a type of self-sorting when it comes to European racial codification
That's why it makes no sense to do what you're doing and try to reinforce the "imposition upon people by racists" as you called it, hey the racists imposed it, so we all have to get offended on behalf of people who strongly identify with codified European Phrenology? No fuck that, they also imposed capitalism, should we all start identifying as capitalists because our lives are defined by capitalist social relations outside our control, I mean plenty do and they'd take your argument and apply it to all sorts of things they'd want to essentialize, gender, religion, caste, national identities
But my point is that people who don't give a fuck about that identity are still subject to it. Whiteness is an ingrained social phenomenon. It's in the US census!
A person who doesn't consider themselves white is still considered white by a society, regardless of mass groups like entire nationalities/races to move between classification or determine new classes. Yes, there is (for lack of a better work) mobility of races between classes, but that doesn't change that typical people will look at another person and decide if they are white or not, and that other person's opinion or lack of one doesn't matter. If a light-skinned European-American puts 'Black' on their census form, this has approximately 0 effect on anything.
No, the analogue would be that even if we decide to identity as socialists, we still live within capitalist social relations imposed on us, until we overcome that system. Until we overcome whiteness, we are subject to our society's (dynamic) interpretation of it. An individual does not have the transformative power necessary to change their own imposed whiteness class, even if large groups do over time.
I'm not disputing that reality, I'm disputing your response to that fact
Not me, I don't identify as white and society at large doesn't see me as white unless I happen to pass on any given day, but the US census considers me white and a certain delusional minority of my ehtnic in-group consider me and themselves white, and I'm not an anomaly, this is the reality for so many ethnic groups who don't fall cleanly into this thing you present as being so cleanly divided
That's why I said it's ironic, cause your argument only really applies to dark skinned black people who don't have the economic and social power to overcome this kind of codification
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Most of the time white people say "I'm not white, I'm ________," they are justifiably clowned on. If a white guy from middle Illinois checks "Hispanic white" on the census and then goes to a Hispanic community saying he's Hispanic, what's the reception going to be like?
Usually it's "I'm not just American, I'm ________" and then they get justifiably clowned on, but that's because Americans think genes make culture
"According to the 2010 US Census, 52.8% of Mexican Americans (approximately 16,794,111 people) self-identified as being White." They'd probably assume he was someone's relative?
And when he tells them he's not related to any Hispanic people, he doesn't speak Spanish, he's never been south of Missouri -- that he's just some white guy from Illinois -- will the reply be "well you checked the box, so sure"? Or will it be some mix of laughter and maybe something along the lines of "shut up, cracker"?
It's wild to me we're going back and forth over something as easily observable as "people will assign you a race and not everyone can change that perception."
Some white people say "yeah kind of sucks to be insulted for being white." You ask them why they identify with whiteness. They say they don't, and they realize race is bullshit, but most of society treats them as white and calls them white anyway.
I don't see any way to dispute that last part. How most people treat you certainly doesn't change because you can check a different box on a form.
Well I'd dispute it by telling them to get over it, because society doesn't treat people "as white", like it's some sort of burden placed on people who identify with whiteness, on the otherhand society does treat people "as non-white" when they don't pass, that's a different story
Nonetheless, I can't just "opt out" of being white unless I fucking lie like Lying Liz Wrecker Warren, and even then I will still be white just like she was still white and society will privilege us as being white all the same. I despise whiteness, but I am still objectively part of the white population and probably will be until I die because I am deep within the shifting boundary of who is designated as white.
Do you build your entire identity around being "white" though? Or are you a person with actual hobbies and interests?
It doesn't upset me because I might be white, but that doesn't mean anything. It only means something if someone is so pathetic and empty that their lack of melanin is the only noteworthy thing about them.
If a white person were to say that they're not actually white, how do you think that would go over here?
I had more to say, but deleted it accidentally.
I didn't mean it like that, more like, "whiteness" is defined more by what it isn't than what it is. It's an in-group that defines itself by not being a part of the out-group. Italians are "white" for now, but weren't 30 years ago or so. Irish people weren't white for a very long time, despite being some of the most pale people in the world.
"White" people don't have a "culture" because "white culture" doesn't exist. White ethnicities have cultures, but "white" is meaningless. A lot of people in colonial nations latch onto "whiteness" to be a part of the "in group." We should oppose this sort of thing and encourage people to celebrate their culture rather than trying to smash it all into some empty homogeneous "white" culture.
Truly the 90s were a terrible time for Italian Americans; I became white just a few months after being born
Oh, I was thinking more of my own country, Italians were our vilified group of immigrants until the 90s (then it switch to Chinese immigrants, then Muslims)
I mean I get all that, but at the end of the day, that's not the sort of framework that is salient. It's not even that big of a deal, it just wears on you after a while.
Sorry if it made it seem like I was invalidating your feelings there. It doesn't wear on me, but that doesn't mean other people aren't worn out by it. I do have a lot of contempt and loathing for people with strong "white" identities though, so I don't mind being "collateral damage" when they are getting made fun of.
I think thats fair, especially when its some rich suburban white kid with liberal parents telling you youre bad because youre white and they just read about it for the first time on reddit
All of that is true. However, a white person rejecting “whiteness” does not prevent others from attributing that identity to them anyway, any more than someone else can prevent society treating them as nonwhite. If someone starts shooting people they view as white, then all of your reasoning means nothing.
'Whiteness' is a label assigned by society, not self-identity. I think race is absolute nonsense and also don't identify as black nor white, that doesn't stop people assigning it to me when they see me outside. And if someone says they want to kill people based off of their own interpretation of white or black, our self-identity or lack of one means nothing.
Like you, the comment itself doesn't insult me because it's not about a group I identify as, but the normalization of conditional racism here absolutely does concerm me.
Counterpoint: zip it, honkey
I grew up around mostly hispanic and black people and i understood whiteness to not really mean your skin color but the culture/class dynamics. Theres people who mean your skin but theyre ignorable.
I feel like my friends and I were always some other third thing that has its foot in a lot of other things. Because we werent rednecks, we werent first gen polish immigrants nor were we middle class suburbia nor were we rich white devils. Were still white but the attachment to the label is very loose.
Getting upset about people mocking your whiteness is kind of a litmus test to see how you view the world and what youve experienced.
But also the people here who are the loudest about whiteness just found out about it, you dont have to take everyone seriously. I also find the self-flagellation kind of pathetic and for liberals.
excuse me young Mokey but I demand to speak to the manager, dont
me
Wokey
I kind of get what you are saying but, as a white person, I think it sucks a lot more being cultureless than seeing people remark on my being cultureless. They recognize the indignity of it, whereas white norms seem to prefer its members be empty husks fit only for consuming and spite.
deleted by creator
Why do you identify as white tho? The US census bureau classifies me as "white" but I've never felt even the barest twinge of identification with that fiction and I can pass
i'm not sure what identifying as white means but cops think i'm white and it seems like i have white privilege so for eeoc purposes or whatever i'm a honkey and i'm not sure checking "other" or "prefer not to say" is meaningful
Basically when you observe terms like White American or American (I'm assuming you're American sorry) which label do you connect with more, which one looms largest in your awareness? When you see a group of white nationalists march in the streets on TV, even if you have a negative reaction, do words like "we", "us", "me" pepper your internal monologue when observing those groups of people?
That's what I mean by identifying, not simply as some detached intellectual understanding of the perception other people have of you, but as a personnel, emotional, and social awareness of yourself
i'm pretty down on my nationality too. there's christian dominionist freaks who loudly identify as their religious affiliation their gender and their citizenship in some order and i'm over here primarily identifying as "person". america is trash and needs to be thrown away, to put it mildly.
when i see things like the nazi march in ohio it's "wish i was there on a roof with a rifle"
My friend that just means you're a thinking, feeling, well-rounded human being with their priorities straight
wait you dont fill it out yourself? ive never taken the census.
I mean I do, but I don't check the white dot, so according to the US government I don't know who I am, or I'm a race traitor or something lmao
I love living in a racialized police state
i see. yeah honestly they way it works is so confusing. congrats on being a race traitor!