Terminal stage treatbrain: "Anyone that ever, ever makes me feel bad about anything done by my predecessors is actually a bad person. I am the Main Character. Me." grillman

Are these bazinga nazis doing things that much better in the present, or are they seeking to "coup whoever they want, deal with it" as usual? three-heads-thinking

  • UlyssesT [he/him]
    hexagon
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    Can I hate Elon Musk and also believe we are failing young men and boys today due to the sins of their fathers?

    It isn't even a broken clock moment here; the implied suggestion from my-hero according to the rest of his professed beliefs on social media is that the answer to your concern is to encourage (affluent cishet white) boys to have an artifically inflated sense of self-superiority and by extension be the most smug and insufferable edgy bigoted assholes possible for the sake of being "based."

    I think it's great that women have gained so much ground, but I don't think leaving anyone behind is good for society in the long run.

    Who the fuck in feminist circles that has any actual following or meaningful contribution at all says "nyehehehe, the men, the enemy team, are hurting which means my team is winning" or are you conjuring that perspective from some other source that is pretending to understand feminism? up-yours-woke-moralists

    And there are a fuck load of young men being left behind right now, and whether or not it's true, a lot of them hear the world telling them it's their own fault for not succeeding. That doesn't lead anywhere good.

    Where would my-hero 's desired messaging for those boys lead them? Somewhere better? scared-fash

    Am I wrong?

    Categorically, here, especially considering you're going to bat for a redpill-flavored "what about the menz" zero-sum argument (that implies that women are in a better overall position than men are and need to somehow concede power they don't actually have) that'd fit right in on front page Reddit, yes you are wrong.

    • hotcouchguy [he/him]
      ·
      11 months ago

      I do think that commenter absorbed some bad framing they should re-examine, but they are raising a real issue. I think you're assuming some bad faith that isn't there.

      All this hand wringing on the right about "society failing young men" or whatever is partially true, not because MEN are suffering in particular, but because everyone is suffering, and men experience that suffering through a masculine framing and masculine expectations.

      None of this is that novel, we all know men are told to get a tough manly job, buy a suburban house, are told to relate to their family primarily as a provider and protector, and on and on. None of that really makes any sense anymore, but it's mostly caused by changing economic forces instead of the changing social attitudes that happened at the same time. We all know this, but we're not good at explaining it. (To be fair, a lot of people don't want to hear it.)

      If our only response is basically "fuck all that, things sucked back then" we're not addressing the real problem. People kinda know that, people at the time certainly knew that, but at least they were miserable in houses they actually owned.

      I know I'm not coming up with anything novel here, but I think it's better to reflect on our approach and refine our thoughts on the issue rather than pounce on people who raise the topic.

      • UlyssesT [he/him]
        hexagon
        ·
        11 months ago

        I think you're assuming some bad faith that isn't there.

        Is it really bad faith when the source of that reply was clown-to-clown-communication clown-to-clown-conversation between a cryptobro and a billionaire apartheid prince?

        It's like when up-yours-woke-moralists claimed that the answer to school shootings should be to provide government issued "girlfriends" to potential school shooters. I can and have mocked that perspective and it wasn't automatically "bad faith" dismissal about some boys being sexually frustrated. The source of the take was radioactive, and saying "actually there is still a problem what do we do" implies that the radioactive source had some valid solution to begin with. It didn't.

        Since you accused me of "bad faith," what solution is implied, let alone suggested, from the cryptobro or the apartheid prince in this discussion?

        • hotcouchguy [he/him]
          ·
          11 months ago

          I meant accusing D3FNC, I don't give a shit either way about some bluecheck lol

          • UlyssesT [he/him]
            hexagon
            ·
            11 months ago

            I said that the apparent source of their concern (and the context of bringing it up in this thread) was questionable.

            Like the "government issued waifus for potential school shooters" up-yours-woke-moralists example I already provided, saying "the fascists have a point here, actually" contaminates whatever point could otherwise have otherwise been made in another thread, because the implication is that the fascists had a valid proposal to begin with regarding whatever the issue was.

            • hotcouchguy [he/him]
              ·
              11 months ago

              I think there's a difference between "the fascists have a point here, actually" and "the fascists are discussing people's actual concerns and experiences." Taking real concerns and proposing cruel non-solutions is kind of their whole deal obviously

              • UlyssesT [he/him]
                hexagon
                ·
                edit-2
                11 months ago

                Nothing was proposed as far as I could tell, by that poster or for that matter the two fascists tweeting back and forth, except maybe "the children of white people should not know about what their ancestors did" which is pretty sus.

                • hotcouchguy [he/him]
                  ·
                  11 months ago

                  I believe they proposed "a Uighur re-education camp program for rural America" which tbh is probably on the right track.

    • JohnBrownNote [comrade/them, des/pair]
      ·
      11 months ago

      And there are a fuck load of young men being left behind right now, and whether or not it's true, a lot of them hear the world telling them it's their own fault for not succeeding. That doesn't lead anywhere good.

      Where would my-hero 's desired messaging for those boys lead them? Somewhere better? scared-fash

      there's another option, but c/menby or whatever it's called is pretty 🦗 and when people do give advice it's full of bootstraps garbage, even here among comrades. It's hard to have anything original to say about "mens' issues": life under capitalism sucks shit, falling through the cracks sucks shit, i've never felt like explicitly queer spaces are "for" masc-presenting agender folks, and we don't have solidarity groups because of socialization and invisibility.

      • UlyssesT [he/him]
        hexagon
        ·
        11 months ago

        There are issues, yes. I don't have easy answers for them. I do disagree strongly with the "women are doing better and that's good but men are being 'left behind'" take which sounds a lot like a veiled right wing talking point.

        • JohnBrownNote [comrade/them, des/pair]
          ·
          11 months ago

          "left behind" is a little vague but there's half-issues that affect women less because of historical sexism like workplace safety and stopped clock situations like education outcomes. Nobody was invested in keeping me in college or is interested in helping me go back and there is stone nothing for people at the intersection of whatever the fuck happened to me.

          Certainly mens' liberation discourse is decades behind the rest of feminism, but that one at least is on men and people society treats as men to sort out. we have a bit of a free start with the "patriarchy hurts men too" writings if more of us would engage with it on that basis.

          • UlyssesT [he/him]
            hexagon
            ·
            edit-2
            11 months ago

            No arguments with you there.

            My take is that "patriarchy don't real because me and mine feel disadvantaged, where are my patriarchy perks" plays into chud hands while "patriarchy fucks men over too and men on top of it receive most of the benefits apart from the privilege of punching down" has more legs.