the platform and devices are kinda counter to principles of privacy. the towers track you, "free" software where your data is the product, the panopticon of everyone having a camera... Places that need to actually be secure ban them. You can get by without a smart phone just fine if you have a regular computer but then you transfer all the vulnerability to that device, it's just not physically with you and you have a little bit better control over it if you know or care enough to make the efforts.
how can acknowledging reality be toxic? it would be nice if it were different, but they're right - smartphones are anathema to privacy as they exist today
Ok but this is like saying “I shouldn’t have to pay a 1/3 of my check to you” to your landlord and refusing to pay. You’re gonna end up on the street whether it’s true or not, until the security state and big tech is dismantled their phones are gonna be like this
Idk man by the company’s own admission it cant support a lot of the things people use smart phones for
If you depend on proprietary mainstream mobile messenger applications, banking applications, use loyalty or travel apps, consume DRM media, or play mobile video games on your fruit or Android smartphone, then the PinePhone Pro is likely not for you."
Like if you’re answer to “just use a dumb phone” is use one that’s this handicapped to the point it basically is a dumb phone with a touch screen then idk if it’s really there yet. (I am being somewhat hyperbolic here, I don’t want to split hairs about what counts as a smart phone I just mean it seems to be lacking functionality)
And a lot of the other solutions to this issue require a lot more tech competence than the average person has.
Edit: also isn’t saying “just use an obscure hong Kong produced device” the same kind of “go live in Afghanistan” kind of answer? Like you’ve done the same thing here but just with a slightly more advanced device
That is true. A lot of what makes smart phones invasive is built into the structures and networks; to interface with that system necessitates giving up privacy. The end user can mitigate it, but so long as the network exists in it's present form, it will always be a partial mitigation with diminishing returns the more you try.
I think it's also true that we should have these conversations about what could be. Especially with computers. These machines can be configured in practically endless ways, so it's pretty damn frustrating to see the scope of what is actually done with them get narrower and narrower.
Right. Like every thing that comes out that’s an alternative seems to be revealed at some point to be piggy backing off some system built by Google/whatever or just has some kind of backdoor for the cia (tor, signal).
I have my system pretty locked down on my computer but I think it’s at best naive to expect average users to jump through so many hoops with this thing. It’s like capitalism and everything else, the whole system needs retooling
I don't think there's technically any evidence of tor or signal being compromised. signal is just speculation based on some early funding by a cia cutout, but it's solid except for the architectural limitations (using phone numbers as identifiers still, some limited metadata they could theoretically collect). Tor might be worse idk, iirc a bunch of the exit nodes are run by some 3 letter agency? but that doesn't necessarily mean the whole system is compromised.
Depending on who you ask tor is compromised enough to make it iffy to full on honey pot, either way my point is that as long as the systems exist as they are it’s gonna be difficult to evade it and always gonna be significantly too involved for average people going about their lives. Paranoid tech enthusiasts being able to navigate this stuff doesn’t translate broadly. Capitalism and big techs strangle hold on tech has to be dismantled before this kind of thing won’t be a concern anymore.
also isn’t saying “just use an obscure hong Kong produced device” the same kind of “go live in Afghanistan” kind of answer? Like you’ve done the same thing here but just with a slightly more advanced device
Plus the original poster was freaking out about installing the Temu app for 15 seconds or whatever. Imagine convincing this person to buy a phone from a company based in China.
they can use the made in USA version of the librem5, a similar tho arguably worse device. The pinephone isn't a one off even if it is in an obscure niche
They have to make a lot of caveats because they constantly get people whinging that they can't install fb messenger or whatever or that their bank app doesn't support linux. The hw manufacturer can't help that and they are setting expectations appropriately for the state of the ecosystem currently. None of those things are inherent to the device or software stack
It isn't fair to say it's a dumbphone with extra steps just because of these things, in fact depending on adoption rates many of those things will eventually gain workarounds or supported applications, they just don't want users to buy it and get disappointed, whereas more technical users will buy it with the expectation of configuring or building their own workarounds/workflows. It will get more mainstream as the path gets more trodden by early adopters, similar to desktop linux which is now a near-trivial switch for many people.
A dumbphone can't do Signal, Matrix, email, hotspot, run a full web browser with full desktop addon support, listen to podcasts, music, maps, and more importantly, a dummbphone isn't a purposefully extensible platform for installing community or commercially created applications, both dedicated and adapted from desktop versions.
They aren't comparable. Linux mobile isn't as mature as android or ios, of course, but android and iOS also don't include banking apps, facebook messenger, netflix, travel/loyalty apps, etc. and didn't have most of those >10 years ago when they were less mature. They gained an available software ecosystem as they grew more popular over time.
Their and my wording is pretty specific though, and it doesn't say 'it's so handicapped as to be basically a dumbphone" it says it doesnt work with a lot of specific common proprietary apps and I don't think those are interchangeable because it makes it sound way worse than it is. It's not that you can't do messaging on it, it's just that facebook messenger/whatsapp specifically will be more of a hassle because there isn't a native application. Others like Signal, Matrix, even some proprietary chat apps aren't so bad. Telegram has a native app that many people use as well, I think it comes preinstalled on some distros. Banking is similar. Similarly your exact bank might or might not work with it, but many will work great in an android container or in the browser (mine does, quite well, and its not a major chain).
It isn't there for every use case, but it is workable for more people than you'd think. Not everyone depends on fb messenger and instagram, or at least not in a way where they need push notifications 24/7 and a browser won't suffice. it's full of compromises but mostly not an outright lack of functionality. I use mobile linux, and while many people don't/won't find the compromises worth it currently, it isn't that it's simply incomprehensible to them, they just have to value the things it does bring to the table more than the compromises. A solid % of the people you see online talking about it are people with little linux experience but who are making it work for the sake of privacy, etc. Shit the guy I bought my device from was an older guy, some kind of libertarian, but not a linux/computer geek, just interested in privacy, and he had been daily driving it.
Those things are still in the developer stage, nobody who's daily driving an iphone is going to switch to a half-broken linux device that isn't ready for the average person to use it.
It doesn't have to be, but it is the way it is. Acknowledging that isn't toxic at all, it's the correct materialist take. Nobody's saying smartphones can't be more secure, but they are not, so it would be ridiculous to behave as though they are.
The real toxic attitude is simply expecting everyone to have a smartphone. Stop trying to make me install an app or scan a QR code for everything. I've gone without using a smartphone for months at a time and I was fine. Pre-covid there were usually a couple times where some event or restaurant or work thing required some unnecessary app, but since covid I think people have gotten sick of this type of stuff and it's not as common. Worse case scenario just get a burner phone for when you're forced to use a smartphone.
I think that attitude is frankly toxic. It's the digital equivalent of "if you don't like America, you can move to Afghanistan!".
the platform and devices are kinda counter to principles of privacy. the towers track you, "free" software where your data is the product, the panopticon of everyone having a camera... Places that need to actually be secure ban them. You can get by without a smart phone just fine if you have a regular computer but then you transfer all the vulnerability to that device, it's just not physically with you and you have a little bit better control over it if you know or care enough to make the efforts.
The RF side is one thing. The software is another. Actually Libre software phones aren't an inherent impossibility.
neither is linux on the desktop. but reddit OP doesn't have a threat model he just has racism.
But I'm not talking about OP but the comment left in this thread.
how can acknowledging reality be toxic? it would be nice if it were different, but they're right - smartphones are anathema to privacy as they exist today
But they don't necessarily have to be, to that level anyway.
even a locked down smartphone is worse than a dumbphone, it's just the reality we live in
It doesn't have to be that way though. Properly designed hardware combined with Libre software could make things much much better.
Ok but this is like saying “I shouldn’t have to pay a 1/3 of my check to you” to your landlord and refusing to pay. You’re gonna end up on the street whether it’s true or not, until the security state and big tech is dismantled their phones are gonna be like this
Their phones are, but not all smart phones are. You can today daily drive a PinePhone Pro running linux.
Idk man by the company’s own admission it cant support a lot of the things people use smart phones for
Like if you’re answer to “just use a dumb phone” is use one that’s this handicapped to the point it basically is a dumb phone with a touch screen then idk if it’s really there yet. (I am being somewhat hyperbolic here, I don’t want to split hairs about what counts as a smart phone I just mean it seems to be lacking functionality)
And a lot of the other solutions to this issue require a lot more tech competence than the average person has.
Edit: also isn’t saying “just use an obscure hong Kong produced device” the same kind of “go live in Afghanistan” kind of answer? Like you’ve done the same thing here but just with a slightly more advanced device
That is true. A lot of what makes smart phones invasive is built into the structures and networks; to interface with that system necessitates giving up privacy. The end user can mitigate it, but so long as the network exists in it's present form, it will always be a partial mitigation with diminishing returns the more you try.
I think it's also true that we should have these conversations about what could be. Especially with computers. These machines can be configured in practically endless ways, so it's pretty damn frustrating to see the scope of what is actually done with them get narrower and narrower.
Right. Like every thing that comes out that’s an alternative seems to be revealed at some point to be piggy backing off some system built by Google/whatever or just has some kind of backdoor for the cia (tor, signal).
I have my system pretty locked down on my computer but I think it’s at best naive to expect average users to jump through so many hoops with this thing. It’s like capitalism and everything else, the whole system needs retooling
I don't think there's technically any evidence of tor or signal being compromised. signal is just speculation based on some early funding by a cia cutout, but it's solid except for the architectural limitations (using phone numbers as identifiers still, some limited metadata they could theoretically collect). Tor might be worse idk, iirc a bunch of the exit nodes are run by some 3 letter agency? but that doesn't necessarily mean the whole system is compromised.
Depending on who you ask tor is compromised enough to make it iffy to full on honey pot, either way my point is that as long as the systems exist as they are it’s gonna be difficult to evade it and always gonna be significantly too involved for average people going about their lives. Paranoid tech enthusiasts being able to navigate this stuff doesn’t translate broadly. Capitalism and big techs strangle hold on tech has to be dismantled before this kind of thing won’t be a concern anymore.
Plus the original
poster was freaking out about installing the Temu app for 15 seconds or whatever. Imagine convincing this person to buy a phone from a company based in China.
they can use the made in USA version of the librem5, a similar tho arguably worse device. The pinephone isn't a one off even if it is in an obscure niche
They have to make a lot of caveats because they constantly get people whinging that they can't install fb messenger or whatever or that their bank app doesn't support linux. The hw manufacturer can't help that and they are setting expectations appropriately for the state of the ecosystem currently. None of those things are inherent to the device or software stack
It isn't fair to say it's a dumbphone with extra steps just because of these things, in fact depending on adoption rates many of those things will eventually gain workarounds or supported applications, they just don't want users to buy it and get disappointed, whereas more technical users will buy it with the expectation of configuring or building their own workarounds/workflows. It will get more mainstream as the path gets more trodden by early adopters, similar to desktop linux which is now a near-trivial switch for many people.
A dumbphone can't do Signal, Matrix, email, hotspot, run a full web browser with full desktop addon support, listen to podcasts, music, maps, and more importantly, a dummbphone isn't a purposefully extensible platform for installing community or commercially created applications, both dedicated and adapted from desktop versions.
They aren't comparable. Linux mobile isn't as mature as android or ios, of course, but android and iOS also don't include banking apps, facebook messenger, netflix, travel/loyalty apps, etc. and didn't have most of those >10 years ago when they were less mature. They gained an available software ecosystem as they grew more popular over time.
This is the exact point that began this tho. It’d be nice if things were better but this is where things are currently
Their and my wording is pretty specific though, and it doesn't say 'it's so handicapped as to be basically a dumbphone" it says it doesnt work with a lot of specific common proprietary apps and I don't think those are interchangeable because it makes it sound way worse than it is. It's not that you can't do messaging on it, it's just that facebook messenger/whatsapp specifically will be more of a hassle because there isn't a native application. Others like Signal, Matrix, even some proprietary chat apps aren't so bad. Telegram has a native app that many people use as well, I think it comes preinstalled on some distros. Banking is similar. Similarly your exact bank might or might not work with it, but many will work great in an android container or in the browser (mine does, quite well, and its not a major chain).
It isn't there for every use case, but it is workable for more people than you'd think. Not everyone depends on fb messenger and instagram, or at least not in a way where they need push notifications 24/7 and a browser won't suffice. it's full of compromises but mostly not an outright lack of functionality. I use mobile linux, and while many people don't/won't find the compromises worth it currently, it isn't that it's simply incomprehensible to them, they just have to value the things it does bring to the table more than the compromises. A solid % of the people you see online talking about it are people with little linux experience but who are making it work for the sake of privacy, etc. Shit the guy I bought my device from was an older guy, some kind of libertarian, but not a linux/computer geek, just interested in privacy, and he had been daily driving it.
Those things are still in the developer stage, nobody who's daily driving an iphone is going to switch to a half-broken linux device that isn't ready for the average person to use it.
It doesn't have to be, but it is the way it is. Acknowledging that isn't toxic at all, it's the correct materialist take. Nobody's saying smartphones can't be more secure, but they are not, so it would be ridiculous to behave as though they are.
the camera and microphone should be controlled by a toggle switch that physically disconnects it from power and the mother board
those exist. pinephone/pinephone pro being first to mind. They have lots of issues but they're almost as good as it gets for open HW+SW right now
Yes definitely a good solution to one of the issues.
things not being conceptually bad in a vacuum has little relation as to how they are in the real world
Oh that's a really nice way to put it, I hope you don't mind if I use this without attribution.
not at all
The real toxic attitude is simply expecting everyone to have a smartphone. Stop trying to make me install an app or scan a QR code for everything. I've gone without using a smartphone for months at a time and I was fine. Pre-covid there were usually a couple times where some event or restaurant or work thing required some unnecessary app, but since covid I think people have gotten sick of this type of stuff and it's not as common. Worse case scenario just get a burner phone for when you're forced to use a smartphone.
That much I can 100% agree on.