Show

Libs: "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT THERE'S GENOCIDE IN XINJIANG, AND IF YOU DARE TO BRING UP THE LACK OF EVIDENCE OF ANY SORT OF ABUSE FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS YOU'LL GET BANNED!!!!"

Also libs: "Didn't you know that 15k of the 40k humans murdered in Gaza were actually terrorists? it-is-known Also, lots of civilians die in wars like the one happening in Gaza, it's sad but inevitable"

smuglord

Fuuuuuuuuuck this shit.

  • vovchik_ilich [he/him]
    hexagon
    ·
    edit-2
    4 months ago

    To actually answer your experiment: the war in Ukraine is an imperialist war between capitalist Russia and a proxy of the capitalist west (mainly US through NATO influence). Russia is on a scary and dangerous trend towards fascism, and I have loved ones directly suffering the consequences of this.

    Edit: not just Russia, to be fair. France, Germany, the US (just to name a few western countries) are clearly on a similar and equally worrying trend. And nobody seems to care when other eastern European countries such as Poland literally ban communist parties (as a good fascist would do), and have people in congress using fire extinguishers against jewish symbols during Hannukah.

    Anyone who had a look at Lenin's "Imperialism: highest stage of capitalism" and took it seriously, knew that there would be war in Europe as soon as they realized that the means of production of the former USSR were auctioned in a corrupt fashion, and their structure of ownership went not to western hands, but to national interests that collide with those of the US. Since that moment, it was just a matter of time that there would be conflict.

    Wow, materialist analysis of a conflict, instead of simplistic "Putin bad" or "NATO bad"? (both of these statements being true). Now, what do you answer?

    • RomCom1989 [he/him, any]
      ·
      4 months ago

      You're going at it wrong

      You need to add some Marvel references and throw in some hamburger analogies so the drone-like WASPs posting this shit can understand

    • ikilledtheradiostar [comrade/them, love/loves]
      ·
      4 months ago

      What I don't understand about Russia is, if they're capitalist then why don't they engage in imperialism? The capitalists there have the same interests as capitalists everywhere. Why weren't they folded into the hegemony they way capitalists of Europe were?

      • Cowbee [he/him, they/them]
        ·
        edit-2
        4 months ago

        As we all know here, I am very stupid i-love-not-thinking but I'll give this a shot based on my current understanding.

        The USSR was not Imperialist, so when it was sliced up and sold to nationalist Capitalists, there were no readily available colonies to exploit, and Western Powers had already divied up the Global South amongst themselves. With little international exploitation, the Russian Bourgeoisie is Nationalist in character, exploiting their internal proletariat. Meanwhile, Western Powers seek the industrial base of Russia, causing constant conflict.

        Russia therefore aligns with BRICS after failing to join NATO and take their "share" of Imperialist super-profits. They tried, and were rejected!

          • Cowbee [he/him, they/them]
            ·
            4 months ago

            Same here, hence the preface, but I did feel comfortable enough in said analysis to post my reply.

          • Belly_Beanis [he/him]
            ·
            4 months ago

            I think you could also describe Russian foreign policy in the Middle East (namely Syria) as "adventurism." AFAIK they're still occupying parts of Syria with no real exit strategy. While this was done at the request of Syria's government in order to combat ISIS, Putin hasn't let the opportunity pass him by to build oil pipelines and whatnot.

            Russia has always been called "the sick old man of Europe" for a reason.

            • Leon_Grotsky [comrade/them]
              ·
              edit-2
              4 months ago

              I wouldn't say "Always"

              The first popular usage of the phrase was Tsar Nicholas I calling the Ottoman Empire the sick man in the 1800's, and it was ascribed to alot of nations by alot of nations after WWII.

            • heggs_bayer
              ·
              4 months ago

              Nowadays Europe is the sick man of Europe.

    • RaisedFistJoker [she/her]
      ·
      4 months ago

      I dont think the war in ukraine is an inter imperialist war, it is an anticolonial war started by the national bourgeoisie

      Losurdo (2017):

      The risk of a great war remains as a result of the efforts, on the part of the United States, to stop anti-colonial revolutions, and to construct a new colonial counter-revolution. The US stands opposed China, but we can also consider here the position of Russia. In my books I insist on a point which is perhaps neglected: the history of Russia in general — not just of Soviet Russia, but of Russia in general — is, on the one hand, the history of an imperial and expansionist power, but there is another aspect to this historical reality: Russia has been at risk of becoming a colony for a very long time. We all know about the invasions by Hitler, by Napoleon, by Charles XII, by the Mongols. For example, if we remit ourselves back to the beginning of the 17th century, it was the Polish who exercised power in Moscow. Immediately after World War I — after the defeat of Tsarist Russia — Russia was in danger of being balkanized, of becoming a colony. Here I quote Stalin, who said that the West saw Russia like they saw Central Africa, that they were trying to drag it into war for the sake of Western capitalism and imperialism. [2]

      The end of the Cold War, with the West and the United States triumphant, once again put Russia at risk of becoming a colony. Massive privatization was not only a betrayal of the working classes of the Soviet Union and Russia, it was also a betrayal of the Russian nation itself. The West was trying to take over Russia’s massive energy deposits, and the US came very close to acquiring them. Here Yeltsin played the role of “great champion” for the Western colonization effort. Putin is not a communist, that much is clear, but he wants to stop this colonization, and seeks to reassert Russian power over its energy resources.

      https://redsails.org/losurdo-and-opera/

      • vovchik_ilich [he/him]
        hexagon
        ·
        4 months ago

        Ok, now your turn on the experiment. Is there an ongoing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Is there an ongoing genocide against Uyghur in Xinjiang?

          • zkrzsz [he/him]
            ·
            edit-2
            4 months ago

            The US’s “Uyghur genocide” (“cultural” or otherwise) disinformation campaign has already been debunked several times over.

            We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.

            Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.

            The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.

            Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.

            Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).

            Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.

            Show

            Credit to @davel@lemmygrad.ml

          • vovchik_ilich [he/him]
            hexagon
            ·
            4 months ago

            Ok, why yes and yes? Where is the evidence that there's an ongoing genocide in China? Please, as I said in the original post in .world, provide any evidence from 2022 onwards.

              • vovchik_ilich [he/him]
                hexagon
                ·
                4 months ago

                First link is paywalled, seems to be an interview talking explicitly about what I'm saying: the concerns for genocide have gone down in the last years, likely due to the lack of evidence of the continuation of the claims that Adrian Zenz made some half decade ago. The interviewee seems to be a member of a US government institution (idk I'm not USian), and since the article is paywalled, i can't see any study or any new information on what's going on in Xinjiang.

                Second link is simply a link to a debate? Like, it claims without providing any sources or citing any study, that millions of Uyghur are experiencing atrocities. How's that evidence?

                Third link quite clearly says "2021", both on the URL and on the article as you open it.

                Can you please, bring any new, sourced information, from 2022 onwards, of the current situation of the "Uyghur genocide" in Xinjiang?

                • EABOD25@lemm.ee
                  ·
                  4 months ago

                  https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/chinese-genocide-of-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-continues

                  https://thediplomat.com/2024/04/erasing-memories-concealing-evidence-chinas-efforts-to-obscure-the-uyghur-genocide/

                  https://www.globalr2p.org/countries/china/

                  https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/9/14/23351153/china-uyghur-muslim-genocide-xinjiang-united-nations

                  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/15/china-is-committing-a-genocide-why-was-our-foreign-office-planning-to-meet-one-of-the-perpetrators

                  None of these should have a paywall except The Guardian which I was able to just "X" out of

                  • vovchik_ilich [he/him]
                    hexagon
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    4 months ago

                    Ok, I've read through everything you've sent me, and I gotta say, sorry mate but you haven't read any of this. I'm tired of reading articles with claims of genocide but no material evidence of absolutely anything post-2021. It's obvious to me that you're just googling for whatever articles with the headline you want, from 2022 onwards, to support your preconceived notion. I hope you will analyze your position, feel free to read all the articles you've sent me, and go through whichever sources they provide (when they do). I'll sum up what I've found

                    First link: reverse image search using "tineye" from the cover picture shows "Adobe stock picture, 2019". No mention of new information after 2021 in the whole article.

                    Second link: the gist of what it says (I'm not quoting literally) is "the ongoing genocide is when you forget about the genocide that did happen according to us". The article shows the WSJ 2019 article that proved reeducation centers were already closed by then. The only post-2021 claim it sources, is that "Uyghur textbooks have been forbidden". Source: Radio Free Asia, 2017. Feel free to look up what "Radio Free Asia" is if you don't know it.

                    Third link: quote "More than 100,000 Uyghurs are working under conditions that strongly suggest forced labor." Source: none. This claim is pre-covid as I remember (it mentions the cotton fields), never been substantiated. "In February 2024 the Chinese government further expanded regulations to restrict freedom of religion in the Uyghur Region, including through bolstering local surveillance powers and tightening control over religious education and places of worship." Again, unsourced information, just general claims about "tightening control" without any actual evidence. The same claim could be made, for example, about the Spanish government in Catalonia, and I guess nobody here claims genocide is happening there (I say this because I'm Spanish myself).

                    Fourth link, and I quote: "And now, finally, the United Nations has published a report. A report that says China’s policies “may constitute international crimes, in particular crimes against humanity.” A report that adds nothing new to what we already knew about the crisis, that neglects to call the crisis what it is — genocide — ". No sources of any abuses post-2021 being used, and it quotes the UN report that clearly doesn't state the word "genocide".

                    Fifth link: no mention to any events post 2021. Few interviews of unsourced and outdated anecdotal claims.

                    Sorry, but I'm exhausted after this pointless exercise. I learnt nothing new, because there is nothing new. I hope you did learn something on the other hand: if I deny the Uyghur genocide, is because there's no substantial evidence to support it.

                  • CloutAtlas [he/him]
                    ·
                    4 months ago

                    CW: mentions of SA

                    Just... that first link alone. Jesus Christ.

                    The Chinese government's family planning program restricts Uyghur and Turkic Muslim reproduction, preventing births in violation of Article 2d of the Genocide Convention. According to Adrian Zenz, between 2015 and 2018, East Turkistan's Uyghur population growth rate fell by 84%. State-sponsored forced inter-racial marriages between Uyghur women and Han Chinese men are part of "family planning" policies, as are female sterilizations, forced abortions, mass rapes, and sexual torture. The CCP forces Uyghur women to live with Han Chinese men in Uyghur homes. The CCP forcibly removes Uyghur children from their homes and places them in residential schools where they are forbidden to speak the Uyghur language, a violation of Genocide Convention Article 2e.

                    This is what the justification this "Genocide Watch" dot com uses to deem there to be an active genocide. Let's just address these

                    The writer was too lazy to actually tell you who the fuck Adrian Zenz is. He believes the Abrahamic God came to him in a dream to tell him to "destroy the CCP". I am not joking. He authored a book called Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. Here's 2 quotes from that book:

                    • "Through notions of gender equality...the enemy is undermining God’s unique but different role assignments for men and women"

                    • "... anti-discrimination laws put in place throughout the European Union ... forbid employers to discriminate based on gender or sexual orientation. That way, it becomes illegal for churches or Christian organizations to refuse to hire homosexuals into important positions"

                    Moreover, this guy has not been to China since 2010, doesn't speak Chinese or Uyghur, and is employed by US funded conservative think tank called "The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation". This unhinged homophobic lunatic is the source for "East Turkistan's Uyghur population GROWTH RATE fell by 84%". This in itself is misleading, since Uyghurs were exempt from the One Child Policy, and their population is GROWING, but the RATE of growth has fallen. As with basically every other demographic in China, as things tend to happen as countries transition from developing to developed. But, this article takes it as fact. This is the due diligence this website has but lets hope it gets better from here. Xinjiang's growth rate fell to 6%, which sounds low but the Chinese national average is 3.8%

                    Second hyperlink to UHRP, which addresses "forced marriage" then goes on with the quote

                    • "In an official document issued by the Kashgar City Civil Affairs Bureau and provided to UHRP by scholar Adrian Zenz, there is a line item for 20,000 yuan (US $2,811) for ethnic intermarriage awards (民汉通婚奖励 – minhan tonghun jiangli) for the fiscal year 2018."

                    It's disguised as a second reputable source, but in fact is actually a second (biased) website that's quoting the aforementioned Adrian Zenz. Whom, once again, has not been in China since 2010. Said article hides in Footnote 5 in the Introduction section this little gem: "We use “coerced” and “forced” interchangeably to describe situations in which a person or persons are subjected to force, duress, or threats by a more powerful person or entity in order to compel the weaker party Uyghur-Han intermarriage has been increasing since 2018 due to state promotion of intermarriage"

                    So, the local government, in the name of promoting social cohesion and unity at a time of racial tension and unrest, provides a one time stimulus for newlyweds of interracial couples, and parades them on TV, which is taken as government sponsorship (sure, I agree with this classification). But Zenz then spins it to "coercion". Oof, big stretch. Then UHRP replaces it with the word "FORCED", because it's a synonym? And then your genocidewatch.com takes it as "mass rape" because forced marriages would imply mass rape if the evidence wasn't, you know, a one time wedding gift.

                    Alright, 3rd hyperlink to USF on forced sterilization by Rukiye Turdush. Well, according to her own words, she left China in the 90's, what is her source of information of mass steril-

                    • "Uyghur women are made to undergo gynecological examinations and forced to take birth control medication, have IUDs inserted, or be sterilized, both in the concentration camps as well as outside the camps. Adrian Zenz’s research on Chinese documents and statistical data8 on birth rates in 2019 reveals that 97 percent of women of child-bearing age in Kashgar and Hotan city in southern East Turkistan could not or would not get pregnant and deliver a child."

                    It's just Adrian Zenz again. Your 3rd link is a 3rd article written by someone else on a different platform that goes back to Adrian Zenz. And it links to the article where he "mistakes" a comma and a full stop in an official document and subsequently claims 87% of IUDs in China were installed in Xinjiang (the real number is 8.7%).

                    The 4th link goes to The Diplomat whose first sentence wildly claims 1,000,000 Han Chinese government officials are being sent to live with Uyghur women in Xinjiang. Lets stop for a moment. Disregard the assumption that the CCP just has a million single men willing to uproot their lives and move to Xinjiang on payroll. The total population of Xinjiang is 25,000,000. The Uyghur population is 12,000,000. Let's assume half of them are women, so 6,000,000. This is an absurd action logically, let alone logistically. What is their source on th- oh it links back to the UHRP article that paraphrases Adrian Zenz.

                    It once again is recycling Adrian Zenz, this time twice removed instead of once. Ok.

                    And the last link to GJIA, surely this time it'll be different. It's authored by Rushan Abbas, let's do a quick Google- "Abbas worked as a contractor for the U.S. military interpreting interrogations of Uyghur detainees at Guantanamo Bay through 2002." ok, the author is complicit in war crimes at Gitmo. But maybe she has something of value to say, let's read the article itself. Well, the first link there goes to indiatimes.com... to an interview with Rushan Abbas. Whom amongst us hasn't cited ourselves. Lets see what source she has for forcibly removing children. Taiwan News. Oh boy they're sure to be impartial regarding China, let's see wha-

                    • "International experts, including German China scholar Adrian Zenz, believe the schools are being established to indoctrinate the Uyghur children with pro-CCP views."

                    It's Zenz again. It's always Zenz. It's just one guy. This is easier than getting to Hitler's page from a random Wikipedia article. Zenz claims there's 500,000 children in detention, Taiwannews reports on it, and a war criminal and former US military employee (but I repeat myself) takes that as scripture and says it's undeniable proof China is committing genocide, and genocidewatch.com takes it as proof.

                  • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    4 months ago

                    Google search: "literally typing the sentence I want to prove" Copy and Paste every link without reading them

          • SexMachineStalin [comrade/them]
            ·
            edit-2
            4 months ago

            The claims of genocide against Uyghurs originated from germany-cool and have been supported by germany-cool amerikkka eu-cool nato-cool ukkk isntrael since and rejected by most rest of the world.

            germany-cool also committed a genocide in Namibia and killed up to as many as 150,000 people over a century ago. The mechanisms and media was also used as a "blueprint" for the Holocaust/Final Solution.

            Fast forward to the present, germany-cool starts wailing at Namibia for establishing closer ties with China and the then-president Habe Geingob very openly accusing germany-cool of us-foreign-policy, stating that China never belittles or infantilises them. Of course, Namibia (and South Africa) obviously rejects the claims of genocide against Uyghurs.

            isntrael starts yet another extermination campaign against Palestine, with very clear goals of a Final Solution. germany-cool in response, starts sending hundreds of millions of Euros in aid to isntrael. Worth noting that isntrael also supports the Uyghur genocide claims with the words "Free Uyghurs" written on the bombs being launched at apartment towers, hospitals, mosques and UN schools.

            So South Africa finally takes the violent Nazi brat isntrael to court and germany-cool immediately goes into hitler-detector, screaming at South Africa while Namibia tells the anti-cracker-aktion Olaf SSchwanz to sit down.

            Meanwhile, China is not starving or bombing the Uyghurs, nor have they been forced into an extermination camp the size of municipal Johannesburg. Life expectancy, literacy rates, incomes, education have all increased. Homes now all have electricity, hot water and working toilets, there's widespread access to primary and higher education, medical treatment and is now united with the rest of China by high-speed rail. Infant mortality and crime has dropped significantly. There has not been a terror attack in nearly a decade and the desperation fueled by poverty is no longer present. Xinjiang is also now a highly important hub for mechanised agriculture and industry. The Belt and Road runs through it and in recent times, large quantities of lithium, oil and other valuable minerals have been found in the province. Uyghur culture is also frequently promoted on Chinese media and tourism both domestic and foreign, has grown. Uyghurs also have Chinese citizenship. China has also finally supported South Africa's case in the ICJ.

            Hope that clears it up for you. If not, then PIGPOOPBALLS

            Death to America

            • heggs_bayer
              ·
              4 months ago

              Uyghurs also have Chinese citizenship.

              Did they not have Chinese citizenship before? That's the only part of your comment I found surprising.

              • GarbageShoot [he/him]
                ·
                4 months ago

                I think they just mean in contrast to Israel's policies on Palestinians in the lands it settles.

              • SexMachineStalin [comrade/them]
                ·
                edit-2
                4 months ago

                They always had Chinese citizenship.

                Added that because a common redditor talking point is throwing the "settler-colonization" accusation in the mix

      • Diuretic_Materialism [he/him]
        ·
        4 months ago

        Idk why you libs come here an act so smugly superior when you have nothing of substance to retort are arguments with, you just declare their apparent superiority of your opinions and scold us for not realizing their self-evident correctness.

        • Adkml [he/him]
          ·
          4 months ago

          Seriously they're fucking children.

          "Oh yea, well what's your take?"

          several paragraphs of analysis with historical context and a focus on concrete actions taken by both sides without relying on political statements

          "uhhhhhh nuh uh"

          They're just as fucking stupid as chuds except that chuds know they're being stupid on purpose to annoy you, libs are dumber than dogshit while also being a smug asshole and infantilizing you.

          • Diuretic_Materialism [he/him]
            ·
            4 months ago

            I have a give and take relationship with people on the internet.

            Yeah "nothing then" is giving to the detailed reply you received

          • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
            ·
            edit-2
            4 months ago

            "Respect me while I act like a smug dipshit"

            Lol, no. You started acting like a child, and strangers online who know better than you are under no obligation to wipe your stupid ass for you. Read a single book or stop your whining, loser.