I had basically given up on electoralism for years at this point.
I do not believe the western working class by and large has any revolutionary potential, basically JDPON-pilled.
But the genocide in Palestine really made me more invested in this whole dog and pony show again.
I guess I figured like…sure bourgeoise democracy will not bring about socialism, but at the very least you can still get some concessions potentially out of it.
Perhaps I was naive, but like…I wanted to hope there was some way the Democrats could be convinced to stop it by November, even if it was electoralist bullshit I feel like the Palestinians deserved (and still deserve) even a futile attempt.
But seeing the shit with the DSA, especially the SMC and Groundwork caucuses, seeing unions who oppose the genocide endorse Biden/Harris right out the gate, seeing the Uncommitted movement do the same while the Harris campaign has done nothing but spit in their face….
I am filled with a helpless rage. Americans are the most pathetic contemptible creatures on this earth.
I’M NOT EVEN ASKING FOR SOCIALISM! ALL I’M ASKING FOR IS THE DEMOCRATS TO COME AROUND ON AN ISSUE 77% OF DEMOCRATS AND 61% OF AMERICANS OPPOSE!
BUT EVEN THAT IS TOO MUCH, TOO HARD FOR THESE ORGANIZATIONS TO FIGHT FOR EVEN WHEN IT IS ALLEDGELY THEIR WHOLE REASON FOR EXISTING!!
I knew Americans were useless and selfish, and short-sighted and stupid…but I didn’t think they were to this extent.
That was my mistake I guess.
Here's another lib who thinks you shouldn't protest someone over genocide because hypothetically Trump would be worse.
Do you still believe they're bitter enemies even though Kamala called Trump after the latest sad excuse for a shooter and condemned political violence? They're more like the face and heel in pro wrestling than anything.
I don't think they're enemies. I think their policies on Israel would be nearly identical, except Trump would be slightly more corrupt and incompetent. It's just hard to threaten to withhold a vote when there's no alternative.
there are alternatives, and withholding votes might get democrats to, yknow, fucking change their position in order to woo voters? Thats the whole point of compromise? seriously do i have to tell libs about how their own shitty 'democracy' works?
The problem is that democrats are also perfectly happy to eat shit in the election and spend the next four years fundraising off Project 2025 and leading the #resistance, so it doesn't seem like they feel any need to be responsive to voters
If they eat shit because of mass defections and people throwing their weight behind 3rd parties, especially socialists like PSL who do non-parliamentary ground work as well, and people continue throwing their weight behind them voting for them and joining them, and continue agitating and growing to not only pull the Democrat-defectors and people who are holding their nose who can be convinced that this is not helping (of which there are and continue to be many); but also continually activating the 35%-50% that don't even vote because of how disillusioned and disenfranchised they are by the corporate-imperialist duopoly; such that the margins of working class voters that Democrats rely on by being the "lesser evil" are starved from them, while they are instead committed to fighting over the increasingly shrinking bourgeois and petty-bourgeois voterbase with the republicans then they will never get power again unless they reorient toward the left; which we know and you've stated as much, they are institutionally structurally incapable of doing.
This means either the ruling class floats a reformist social-democrat "labor" or "progressive" party to try to capture working class voters from moving to the growing socialists, which we are growing and will --- from those radicalized after the 2016 primaries to the George Floyd Uprisings to now and on it's been exponential; which would cause the Democrat party to split in half with half joining the republicans (that they've already been converging with anyway), and half hedging their bets and fleeing to the new "progressive" party like 'rats from a sinking ship,' which would not only alienate the new "progressive" party's left wing by "democrat-izing" the party with the same people and politics they were trying to escape from (with which sufficient agitation easily moves many of them into more radical politics and joining the socialists), but would force this reconstituting on the bourgeois politicians as a chaotic retreat into positions they don't want against a rising socialist party. This also, in turning the focus of the bourgeois politicians inward, inevitably helps the victims of imperialism and sharpens the external contradictions of empire, which have in many places already approached or reached rupture points.
Or they ignore this and ignore us and drop the thinnest-of-masks they still have; joining the open-fanged republicans straight away. This would be their worst option for maintaining the illusion of liberal democracy, and would promptly radicalize a huge portion of working people who never held any illusions about the Republicans or about Trump into socialist and revolutionary politics. And with supporting the PSL and actively engaging in movement-building with them, having the socialists standing on the other side of the see-saw with the weight of the working class when this happens, funneling masses to us, could legitimately lead to a sort of dual power situation. This latter option would be incredibly self-destructive for the ruling class, but they are that and have clearly become so comfortable and entrenched in their interest they've forgotten how to play politics, so who knows.
We need to think proactively and dialectically, and engage ourselves in confronting with sharp intent the contradictions that exist; with a mind for movement-building among the masses, many of whom still engage with electoral politics or otherwise still believe in it as an institution, if not the parties in it. This is what I see as the proper line. And though you're not wrong (in fact are quite accurate) in describing exactly what the Democrats are happy to do in their cruise-control political niche within the duopoly which they've grown so comfortable with, it is an improper and opportunist line to just accept that as is and so capitulate to their precepts which only serves their ends. Instead, we need to think about how to exploit their strategy by our understanding of what and who they are, and make it untenable and force them into positions that they are incapable of handling.
wow so trump is the harm reduction candidate
Unironically I think Venezuela coup and Bolivia coups probably would have been less of a disastrous clusterfuck for the US, and much more competent and effective under Clinton, because of how petulant and stupid and impatient and spiteful Trump is in comparison to... basically anyone on the planet. John Bolton was all pissy about it in his book and interviews. Trump just hated the guy's mustache and would be petty all the time, and pushed himself into involvement where he had no place to, and eventually just got "bored" of Venezuela and scrapped it. Leaving things in the hilarious state where after Russia went into Ukraine, Nuland had to meet Maduro asking for oil while the US still recognized Guaido, and got grilled by, of all people, gusano-extraordinaire Marc Rubio in a congressional hearing over it (same hearing where Nuland admitted about the biolabs in Ukraine that was being denied elsewhere. Bizarre timeline)
Murdering Soleimani was fucking unhinged and horrible, but it's hard to say Clinton of all people wouldn't do something equally evil, but with less randomness and with more followup than just murdering a guy on a diplomatic mission, by the grace of Iran not causing a massive war over such a stupid thing, and claiming "victory."
Honestly they all deserve the hague, but then the US would invade the hague
unless he wins a state by one vote, it makes no difference. If he wins by multiple votes, specifically due to low turnout from low enthusiasm for Harris, then it's her fault as a candidate for not appealing to the electorate.
Yeah, it would absolutely be her fault. Wouldn't help Palestine much though...
Her winning wouldn’t either, by her own admission.
No, I agree. I think that Palestine isn't the only issue that matters, though, and she'd be different than Trump on a lot of other issues. Female reproductive health, appointing judges, having a working FTC and FCC. So if I'm going to withold my vote to help Palestine, I'd like some reason to believe it would actually help them.
motherfucker just look at all the fucking nothing Biden has done on that. Roe v Wade overturned on his watch and the only response was.... nothing! Telling you to fucking vote! He's already in fucking office, stupid!
christ your fucking lemmy instance is rivaled only by that stupid fucking star wars one for random ass shitlibbery
I've tried using this line of argument on a lib (my mother). It doesn't work. Her response was "Biden is super catholic and had a hard time even saying the word 'abortion'. Kamala is a pro-choice woman, so of course she'll be better about reproductive rights." In my mind that response is almost delusional, it's clear to me that abortion is too potent a political football to ever be truly "solved". Democrats will pay lip-service to it to gain votes and then do fucking nothing to protect reproductive rights. But in the lib mind, since Kamala is a "progressive" (ha) woman, abortion rights are as good as saved, even though we've had a democrat in office for the last four years and reproductive rights are more under threat than they've ever been.
I don't know how to get through to people, I think sometimes you just can't.
Has Kamala even said she'll do anything about abortion? Like we all know Obama lied about codifying Roe to gain votes, but she hasn't even gone that far AFAIK.
You're implying that me voting for Harris would help Palestine, but in the scenario I just laid out, my vote is not enough to have changed the outcome!
You’re right that their policies on Israel would be nearly identical. The point is that they don’t have to be. OP pointed out that 77% of Democrats and 61% of Americans support ending the genocide, why isn’t she listening?
Because she knows that Palestine isn't most American's top issue, so she can afford to lose the few people that would go through with a boycott.
Just looking for a quick clarification on two points before further responses:
Yeah, to both.
So we're at the point where it seems you acknowledge the horror of the US empire in basically being directly responsible (it could stop the money faucet at any moment if it viewed stopping the genocide as being in its own interests) for what I personally can only imagine as the worst crime against humanity possible to be committed by a state actor.
Tactically the only real electoral power you have as an individual is the threat to withhold your vote, and to deploy that tactic most effectively you'd give a very explicit reason for that withholding in order to apply pressure to the party who ostensibly does want to win an election. Infinitely better than individually voicing this tactic is creating a large bloc of people who exist within the critical states where 10-20k people will potentially determine an election. Getting the number of people in this bloc higher is the only real electoral strategy at forcing Kamala's campaign to acquiesce to electorate demands and bring forth a better outcome for Palestine because if she doesn't she will, explicitly, know she will lose. This provably works because the democratic party has already proven that in the face of an electoral impossibility (Joe Biden winning re-election) they will try to preserve power.
Even if you're a "there are other issues more important to me than attempting to stop my nation's genocide voter" (and if you are one of these people I really recommend a lot of introspection about yourself, your morals, and your convictions)- recognize that the violence being financed, supported, and enacted abroad WILL INEVITABLY COME HOME at some point if it is not rejected by the electorate. I don't know your most vulnerable issue and where it would rank on democrats deciding genociding or interring you would be politically expedient for them, but it sure seems that at least attempting this tactic even if it's just you falsely signaling to them that you won't vote for democrats over their financing and arms supplying of this genocide is in your long term interests so that you hopefully stop or at least delay the empire turning its violence on you.
I want my sisters to maintain bodily autonomy, and I don't want my country to descend even more into christian fascism. I also don't think me falsely signalling that I won't vote for democrats will benefit much of anything. In 2016, it mostly just got leftists labeled "Bernie Bros" and blamed for Clinton's failings.
Then when the state's violence, which has already demonstrated its capacity for genocide to your own acknowledgement, inevitably turns on you or your loved ones (maybe thats 5 years, maybe it's 50) don't be surprised and understand that your potential allies will have already been destroyed. The people you didn't stand in solidarity with before you are gone and the ones next on the list take the same inaction you espouse right now.
You're mistaken on a few points here, friend. I'm gonna give an overview and then there's a spoiler with a wall of text deepening explanations.
Your sister is already not maintaining her bodily autonomy under democrats now. It's being stripped all over the country and democrats have been doing nothing to stop it, and in many ways actively helping it be stripped. It will keep happening without change. Fascism is not a person, and is growing and will grow regardless of who is president, as the economic crises and world crises of empire worsen. No one is asking you to falsely signal, but telling you why giving democrats the mandate to do what they are doing and supplying them their margin they rely on to cruise control into genocide and aiding fascism and destruction of the planet so they can turn around and drum up this same sentiment and fears in you for the next election is untenable and is how things got this bad in the first place.
And 2016 didn't "mostly just get leftists labeled bernie bros and blamed for clinton failing", 2016 and experiencing that nonsense from liberals made people communist. It made them actual leftists. It radicalized more people into communism than any event in decades, only surpassed by the George Floyd Uprisings (which may not have had that kind of energy without such radicalization) and then this moment we are living in now. 2016 made many people into actual active socialists and made them realize the role liberals truly play in society because of the things that you said "mostly only" happened. And what is happening now in 2024 is doing that tenfold. Maybe more. The radicalization happening now is unprecedented in modern USA and other countries. You never would have seen in the USA these kinds of mass sustained protests saying "Free Palestine" and calling for decolonization of the occupation, and interrupting campaign events to protest US-backed Israeli atrocities, like we are seeing now. I'm going to deepen these with explanations, but it's a wall of text so I'm gonna spoiler it so it doesn't mess peoples' scroll.
spoiler
.
When in objective reality, they are the republicans. We're closer to WW3 than we've been in decades. military expansion and proxy wars and coups and mass prisons and police militarization and murder, and repressions of civil rights and free speech and protests, have all continued to get worse under the democrats. Cop City is happening under democrats. Biden not only didn't close the border camps, but deregulated them and allowed them to be privatized for profit by private contractors. Biden brought in all the worst neo-con warmongers he could find, put a Chevron executive who defended the destruction of the Amazon and poisoning of Indigenous people to head his environmental executive, and continued the legacy of his President Obama whose entire cabinet was hand-picked by Citigroup (and we all remember him bailing out the banks)! And there is an active genocide, the most televized genocide in history, being financed and funded and armed by the US, and the supposed "lesser evil" Biden went around congress twice to give them bombs and guns faster than even congress could do, hoping that Gaza would be finished off before the Elections. But because Trump is open and honest about his wanting to do what the democrats are already currently doing he's somehow worse for Palestine so we're shamed into supporting the current genocidaires who are covering up their crimes and lying about their crimes? The current genocidaires who, when protestors shout "no to genocide, stop the genocide" are shouted down and smugly condescended to with "I'm talking! You must want Trump to win!" These people are better and Trump is worse? No, they're the same and will continue to bring us down the same path if we continue allowing them to.
.
.
.
Let them call you whatever they want. Why decide what you're going to do politically based on what your enemies say? They will call you worse than that. You should take pride in your enemies calling you such petty names knowing they are throwing ideological tantrums. The more you antagonize the system and its status quo, the more the system and their supporters will demonize you. Why do you think communist was made a dirty word in the US through a century of active red scare propaganda and COINTELPRO operations? It wasn't because they were telling any kind of truth, it was because they were scared of people liking us, and of joining us. Of divesting from their system and building our own. There is zero reason to let the people who hate you and want you to be compliant dictate your politics. Instead do what is intelligent and incisive to jam a crowbar into the contradictions of the system, and work for those working class people (who know better than you do and have known for longer the ruling class and their petty-bourgeois college liberals are full of shit and the names they throw mean nothing) so we can all with our collective weight pry the contradiction apart.
And remember that the more absurd the demonization gets and the more active work we do to show their lies and hypocrisy, the more their demonization of us becomes their undoing. Like now conservative reactionaries are calling everyone to the left of Thatcher a communist. This didn't make communism scarier to the working class --- it made it so now people are less instinctually terrified of the idea, or think "that doesn't sound right" and read some Marx and realize he had a very prescient analysis of what we can all see around us. There are more communists now than there were in the 80s, and we're growing. You can help in being a part of that, or let our enemies and their liberal minions shame and cow you into submission and compliance based on fears that they've implanted on you that are only telling half the story, and in doing so helping those fears come true.
GOOD post
So you're saying she's a fully cognizant sociopath? Wow great selling point, liberal
So, he would be the harm reduction candidate. And you are saying that people should vote for Harris.
The Dems have to eat shit for moving to the right