Shitting inside is not the natural behavior of a dog but there is a difference between holding a poop in until you go outside and carrying a person on your back. If someone isn't bringing their dog out to poop and forcing them to hold it in to an uncomfortable point it's comparable to riding horses. I don't see how the situation benefits the dog here, but it is dog-neutral as long as you aren't being specifically negligent or abusive. The act of riding the horse is abuse in itself. So one is teaching a behavior that is for your convenience but doesn't harm the animal and the other harms the animal. I'm sure there are etyomolgical similarities between breaking a horse and housebreaking a pet but housebreaking has turned into a more colloquial term distinct from 'breaking' a horse. Words being the same doesn't really mean much when the context of their use is clearly different. A well seasoned solider isn't one who's covered in cumin and tarragon and a well seasoned meal hadn't fought many battles.
A well seasoned solider isn't one who's covered in cumin and tarragon and a well seasoned meal hadn't fought many battles
this is the core of a fantastic joke with a lil set up
So one is teaching a behavior that is for your convenience but doesn't harm the animal and the other harms the animal
this is where the trouble is. from a human perspective i recognize a distinct similarity, but i am not veterinarian enough to make a judgement on how true that is from a biological standpoint. does the weight of people/cargo on an equine make it so? is pulling a wagon as damaging as putting things on their back? how often are these activities done, does that matter?
i don't expect you to answer those, i just have a bit of skepticism around this from studying people with very fundamental relationships with horses on the steppe. it's hard to imagine that horses have had a place below and less care than other animals in societies that prised them so much, y'know?
I'm gonna be workshopping this seasoned soldier joke for a while. I feel like maybe we could tie it in with Biden's fabulisms about his uncle being eaten by cannibals
Care is irrelevant here, riding horses is really bad for them, same with making them pull stuff. Plain and simple. For riding, it's a lot of weight constantly on their spine and for hauling carts and stuff, that's physical labor a horse was never meant to do. I was gonna say we don't industrialized dogs, but we do and did even more in the past but the majority of dogs that people have now are mostly just there to be pals, that evolution never happened when cars replaced horses, we stopped needing dogs as useful hunting and gathering pals but we still enjoyed their company where it seems any attachment to a horse is based mostly around the riding of it. And like, I raised huskies and have had them lead a sled and had the youngest one we raised learn to haul me around on a skateboard when we moved into town, so I'm not totally innocent here, but well and this is my personal observation here, the huskies really really wanted to do it and the horses I've seen have seemed less enthusiastic
for hauling carts and stuff, that's physical labor a horse was never meant to do
this is super fascinating because what about those draught horses, which brings in the whole can of worms about selective breeding. but they can definitely handle pulling modern day shit (but were bred for a lot of heavier, more dangerous tasks in the 19th century)
we still enjoyed their company where it seems any attachment to a horse is based mostly around the riding of it
i wonder if 'early' relationships with dogs were viewed the same way. is there space for pet-like conditions for horses? and like dogs would that be accompanied with some labor uses (herding dogs, watch dogs) while most of them were just companions? i think donkeys are a total shoo-in for pets but horses are awful big
Yes, most dogs were generally kept for their labor use and smaller lap dog types were generally bred by royalty as a status symbol. And generally speaking your working dogs are in a bit of a symbiotic relationship, dogs sorta followed people eating leftovers and also had the benefit for people of having packs of dogs watching their backs and keeping other scary stuff more nervous and that turned from a mutually beneficial relationship to us using dogs as tools and companions at the same time. However as utility shrank the angle of companionship stayed and became.e more important and thar was also to the detriment of dogs, look at pugs etc. Also this is starting to cross into the territory of I think we also have historically mistreated dogs, there are differences in how and I fo think dogs and people are more set up to coexist than horses and humans because of how the relationship developed, there is a pretty old symbiosis with dogs and people, horses were pure animal exploitation.
dogs are a bit older than other domestic animals but i hesitate to put too much meaning in dates that can vary 1,000 years in a period where the biggest advancements are in ways to put stone-headed sticks into things. i'm a firm believer in animal agriculture being after plant agriculture ofc but that hypothesis does imply some symbiosis with the progenitors of domestic species, so it's hard to say how different that is.
Dogs were domesticated prior to agriculture and there's evidence of that. You maybe just don't know shit about anthropology and when and how different animals were domesticated.
i know that, but how little we know about domestication and stone age shit shouldn't give one confidence in making huge character differences between how different animals were domesticated originally. nobody wrote down that dogs are friends but cow-aurochs are food. could aurochs or horses be a benefit to have around the agricultural community before domestication? we don't know
There are wild populations descended from the same ancestors as horses and dogs, those are not the same thing as wild horses and dogs. They have fundamental biological and behavioral differences.
Yes, domesticated horses and dogs can interbreed with their wild counterparts, but at that point you’re getting into the “What is a species?” question. Polar bears and grizzly bears can interbreed just fine if they’re in the same place, same for chimps and bonobos.
And for horses there aren’t even really still wild horses. There’s Przewalski's horse, but they separated from the ancestors of domestic horses long before domestication. They have a different number of chromosomes. Whatever wild horse populations we originally took the first horses from are long extinct.
I don't see how the situation benefits the dog here,
Seriously? You don't think that it is detrimental to any animal to live in its own shit? I expected "show me some scientific evidence that it is good for a dog not to have to live in a pile of its own feces" from the dishonest animal abuse supporting dipshits but I didn't expect it from you
I really thought that anyone arguing in good faith would take for granted that teaching a dog to go outside to poop is beneficial to the dog in the same way that it is beneficial to a child to teach it to poop in the toilet
I agree it does benefit the dog that way, but that is only because you're also keeping a dog indoors more than it probably wants to for your own convenience which I figure kinda evens it out. I guess I also assumed the owner would clean up the indoor dog shit cause they would have to live with the same pile
Ah, I see where the disconnect was then. Obviously I have never seen dogs that weren't trained to poop outside except in neglectful households where they were abused in various other ways at the same time. I very much associate refusing to train a dog to poop outside with neglect and carelessness and so the image in my head was of someone who just doesn't pay attention to what the dog does at all (maybe the dog is locked in a seldom used room or it's a hoarder house where some extra poop pretty much just goes unnoticed)
I see what you're getting at now, if you clean up the poop then yeah that's more convenient for the dog, and the only upside then to training it to poop outside is for you and not the dog. You're right.
Also sorry for the tone of my previous comment, that was pretty cringe
You know, when I see a struggle session thread I just keep on scrolling because it's never worth it. I don't usually say controversial things at all because, again, not worth it. But this place is usually cool enough that I often forget that basic vegan criticisms of obvious animal abuse are considered controversial here and will instantly turn even the otherwise coolest users into your shitty uncle in his f150
Thanks for saying I'm cool, but like, same. We use the term Dehumanization for the most awful treatment of people and the word implicitly applies that treating non humans terribly is fine. Animal abuse is disturbingly ingrained in people and as long as we continue a mechanized genocide on animals for our own carnal pleasure we will never be good enough to have the control over the earth that we do.
Shitting inside is not the natural behavior of a dog but there is a difference between holding a poop in until you go outside and carrying a person on your back. If someone isn't bringing their dog out to poop and forcing them to hold it in to an uncomfortable point it's comparable to riding horses. I don't see how the situation benefits the dog here, but it is dog-neutral as long as you aren't being specifically negligent or abusive. The act of riding the horse is abuse in itself. So one is teaching a behavior that is for your convenience but doesn't harm the animal and the other harms the animal. I'm sure there are etyomolgical similarities between breaking a horse and housebreaking a pet but housebreaking has turned into a more colloquial term distinct from 'breaking' a horse. Words being the same doesn't really mean much when the context of their use is clearly different. A well seasoned solider isn't one who's covered in cumin and tarragon and a well seasoned meal hadn't fought many battles.
this is the core of a fantastic joke with a lil set up
this is where the trouble is. from a human perspective i recognize a distinct similarity, but i am not veterinarian enough to make a judgement on how true that is from a biological standpoint. does the weight of people/cargo on an equine make it so? is pulling a wagon as damaging as putting things on their back? how often are these activities done, does that matter?
i don't expect you to answer those, i just have a bit of skepticism around this from studying people with very fundamental relationships with horses on the steppe. it's hard to imagine that horses have had a place below and less care than other animals in societies that prised them so much, y'know?
I'm gonna be workshopping this seasoned soldier joke for a while. I feel like maybe we could tie it in with Biden's fabulisms about his uncle being eaten by cannibals
I'll agree with that part. I am really funny.
Care is irrelevant here, riding horses is really bad for them, same with making them pull stuff. Plain and simple. For riding, it's a lot of weight constantly on their spine and for hauling carts and stuff, that's physical labor a horse was never meant to do. I was gonna say we don't industrialized dogs, but we do and did even more in the past but the majority of dogs that people have now are mostly just there to be pals, that evolution never happened when cars replaced horses, we stopped needing dogs as useful hunting and gathering pals but we still enjoyed their company where it seems any attachment to a horse is based mostly around the riding of it. And like, I raised huskies and have had them lead a sled and had the youngest one we raised learn to haul me around on a skateboard when we moved into town, so I'm not totally innocent here, but well and this is my personal observation here, the huskies really really wanted to do it and the horses I've seen have seemed less enthusiastic
this is super fascinating because what about those draught horses, which brings in the whole can of worms about selective breeding. but they can definitely handle pulling modern day shit (but were bred for a lot of heavier, more dangerous tasks in the 19th century)
i wonder if 'early' relationships with dogs were viewed the same way. is there space for pet-like conditions for horses? and like dogs would that be accompanied with some labor uses (herding dogs, watch dogs) while most of them were just companions? i think donkeys are a total shoo-in for pets but horses are awful big
Yes, most dogs were generally kept for their labor use and smaller lap dog types were generally bred by royalty as a status symbol. And generally speaking your working dogs are in a bit of a symbiotic relationship, dogs sorta followed people eating leftovers and also had the benefit for people of having packs of dogs watching their backs and keeping other scary stuff more nervous and that turned from a mutually beneficial relationship to us using dogs as tools and companions at the same time. However as utility shrank the angle of companionship stayed and became.e more important and thar was also to the detriment of dogs, look at pugs etc. Also this is starting to cross into the territory of I think we also have historically mistreated dogs, there are differences in how and I fo think dogs and people are more set up to coexist than horses and humans because of how the relationship developed, there is a pretty old symbiosis with dogs and people, horses were pure animal exploitation.
dogs are a bit older than other domestic animals but i hesitate to put too much meaning in dates that can vary 1,000 years in a period where the biggest advancements are in ways to put stone-headed sticks into things. i'm a firm believer in animal agriculture being after plant agriculture ofc but that hypothesis does imply some symbiosis with the progenitors of domestic species, so it's hard to say how different that is.
Dogs were domesticated prior to agriculture and there's evidence of that. You maybe just don't know shit about anthropology and when and how different animals were domesticated.
i know that, but how little we know about domestication and stone age shit shouldn't give one confidence in making huge character differences between how different animals were domesticated originally. nobody wrote down that dogs are friends but cow-aurochs are food. could aurochs or horses be a benefit to have around the agricultural community before domestication? we don't know
There are literally still wild horses and dogs.
There are wild populations descended from the same ancestors as horses and dogs, those are not the same thing as wild horses and dogs. They have fundamental biological and behavioral differences.
Yes, domesticated horses and dogs can interbreed with their wild counterparts, but at that point you’re getting into the “What is a species?” question. Polar bears and grizzly bears can interbreed just fine if they’re in the same place, same for chimps and bonobos.
And for horses there aren’t even really still wild horses. There’s Przewalski's horse, but they separated from the ancestors of domestic horses long before domestication. They have a different number of chromosomes. Whatever wild horse populations we originally took the first horses from are long extinct.
Seriously? You don't think that it is detrimental to any animal to live in its own shit? I expected "show me some scientific evidence that it is good for a dog not to have to live in a pile of its own feces" from the dishonest animal abuse supporting dipshits but I didn't expect it from you
I really thought that anyone arguing in good faith would take for granted that teaching a dog to go outside to poop is beneficial to the dog in the same way that it is beneficial to a child to teach it to poop in the toilet
I agree it does benefit the dog that way, but that is only because you're also keeping a dog indoors more than it probably wants to for your own convenience which I figure kinda evens it out. I guess I also assumed the owner would clean up the indoor dog shit cause they would have to live with the same pile
Ah, I see where the disconnect was then. Obviously I have never seen dogs that weren't trained to poop outside except in neglectful households where they were abused in various other ways at the same time. I very much associate refusing to train a dog to poop outside with neglect and carelessness and so the image in my head was of someone who just doesn't pay attention to what the dog does at all (maybe the dog is locked in a seldom used room or it's a hoarder house where some extra poop pretty much just goes unnoticed)
I see what you're getting at now, if you clean up the poop then yeah that's more convenient for the dog, and the only upside then to training it to poop outside is for you and not the dog. You're right.
Also sorry for the tone of my previous comment, that was pretty cringe
It's a weird thread.
You know, when I see a struggle session thread I just keep on scrolling because it's never worth it. I don't usually say controversial things at all because, again, not worth it. But this place is usually cool enough that I often forget that basic vegan criticisms of obvious animal abuse are considered controversial here and will instantly turn even the otherwise coolest users into your shitty uncle in his f150
It isn't worth it
Thanks for saying I'm cool, but like, same. We use the term Dehumanization for the most awful treatment of people and the word implicitly applies that treating non humans terribly is fine. Animal abuse is disturbingly ingrained in people and as long as we continue a mechanized genocide on animals for our own carnal pleasure we will never be good enough to have the control over the earth that we do.