Hey, everyone. Hope this post finds you all well! A few days ago, PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS opened a comm request thread to name the community formerly known as The Dredge Tank. Now that it's been about 4 days and the votes seem pretty steady, we're rea-

angry-place "STOP THE COUNT!!!"

top-cop "Mr. President, she's talking."

As I was saying, we're ready to call the vote. Nobody's been happy with counterpropaganda, and we've heard you loud and clear. I'm excited to announce that Slop. is now open for all the posts you'd have previously posted to The Dredge Tank.

El Chisme continues to remain the new space for posts that would have been at home in The Dunk Tank.

In case anyone's confused about this, I'm gonna give a really quick explanation so everyone's on the same page with what's going on with the Tanks. The names of The Dunk Tank and The Dredge Tank have racist origins. The moderators of those communities agreed that the names of these communities should be changed. Unfortunately, while Lemmy allows the display names of communities to be changed, it does not currently allow the actual comm names to be changed. In order to change the names of these communities, we would have to shut them down and re-open new comms under new names. The mods of the dunk tank and dredge tank requested the name c/gossip. While there are some legitimate arguments being made relating to misogynistic societal perceptions of that word, the mods include women and enbies who disagree and specifically requested this name. I feel that this situation parallels the initial pushback that was experienced with disabled in which users voiced concerns that this name could be ableist, but the moderators of that community are themselves disabled and specifically requested that comm name, verbatim. Along with this name change, the mods felt that slightly expanding the scope of the community and simultaneously lowering the bar for the previous Rule 8 would allow users to post about more minor public figures as well as more major ones. This was seen as an expansion of the community's role, allowing posts to the new Dredge Tank replacement (counterpropaganda) to become a little more focused. We communicated this poorly, but the intention was to have users offer a sentence or two countering the reactionary take shown in the screenshot. Given how things spiraled from there, we've taken a step back from changing any of the rules during the switchover from The Dredge tank to Slop. We're trying to take time to let everyone breathe without changing too many things too quickly, but we also want to actually make sure people can get back to posting. Hopefully you're all okay with this pacing, lemme know below.

EDIT: thanks to @niph@hexbear.net for pointing out that this post didn't include the descriptions of the comms.

Where am I supposed to post...?

Slop is for what the old dredge_tank was like. Roast anonymous reactionaries to your heart's content!

Gossip for an informal discussion regarding people with power / notable / tools of power

Counterprop for a formalized discussion regarding reactionary people no matter how powerful/notable.

In upcoming admin updates:

  • I'll post some analysis of mistakes and missteps that were made in recent days, including some of the context that led up to those errors.

  • I'll offer a clearer and more complete explanation and description of the ongoing site culture issues that have been previously mentioned. These were poorly communicated before, but I'll do my best to explain both the issues at hand as well as the importance of dealing with them.

The last few days have been really confusing and frustrating for a lot of people and a lot has happened. This is not an appropriate place to reopen, re-litigate, or rehash the struggle session. I will not be debating either the struggle session or the subjects of the upcoming admin update posts here. Please refrain from doing so as well.

trump-feed "Folks, we're feeding the fish their slop, they're tremendously hungry, incredibly famished. And look: I get to feed them. They say: Mr President, please feed the koi fish, its din din time, and it is! I get to do the little shaka-shaka with the can, and they're happy, they're eating -they're eating- out of the palm of my hand, and they're getting so big and so strong. Look at all these koi fish! I bet they won't have any issues finding -finding- a special someone. And it's wonderful, it's great. Greydon Carter could never be a tremendously effective keeper of fish. His party is not so hot, and all of his betta fishes are dying! But Lyudmila's letting me feed them, and I'm doing a tremendously great job, and a looot better than what Sleepy Joe would do!"

    • CARCOSA [they/them]A
      ·
      1 day ago

      I'm sorry but a racist game that killed and maimed people for years has no redeemable qualities.

      Gossip has been used to protect communities and has a recent misogynistic association.

      There were people concerned about !disabled@hexbear.net name yet the disabled mods that wanted the community specifically chose the name.

      • crosswind [they/them]
        ·
        1 day ago

        Through all that's happened, I've been repeatedly encouraged by how quickly and nearly unanimously the whole community agreed that the tank names needed to be changed. The dunk tank had been around for years, but once the harm was pointed out, it was time to for it to go.

        Seeing the staunch defense of the name "gossip" when quite a few people immediately say they find it offensive makes me think that was a special case, and not the sign of the strength of the community I had hoped it was.

        • CARCOSA [they/them]A
          ·
          1 day ago

          Because there was ample evidence of the dunk tank being an abhorrently racist term that killed people where as gossip is a tool that has been vital to marginilized communities demonized by the patrirarchy over time. The site has recently commited to addressing the issue of misogyny on the site and lemmy at large.

          The scholar Silvia Federici, in her Feminist and Marxist interpretation of the Witch Hunts of the early modern period in Europe, analyses how the term gossip was used as a misogynist, oppressive tool against women. Federici recounts that by the sixteenth century in modern England, gossip, a term that had been commonly used during the Middle Ages to indicate a close female friend, turned into a denigrating term signifying idle talk.

          During the Middle Ages, sociality among women prevailed, most activities were performed collectively, and a tight-knit community emerged. In the sixteenth century, with the destruction of the guilds, industrialisation, the emergence of capitalism, and, coincidentally (or not so coincidentally) the violent Witch Hunts, women started to be excluded from society leading to a feminisation of poverty.

          The Witch Hunts demonised most interactions amongst women. Women were surveilled, marginalised and feared. Friendships amongst women became an object of suspicion, denounced, and understood as subversive. Women were portrayed as scolds, too domineering of their husbands, witches, and worse… Gossipers! And thus, the harmless stereotype of women as innate gossipers emerged.

          I use the word harmless sarcastically for many reasons. An obvious one is that a torture instrument was designed with the sole intention of punishing those women involved in gossiping.

          description of torture

          This instrument called the scold’s/witch’s/gossip bridle was an iron muzzle that locked onto the women’s head and mouth, pressing their tongue down to prevent them from speaking.

          Furthermore, the term gossip has been used to not only destroy traditional female practices, collective relations and systems of knowledge but also erode women’s rights and devalue women’s labour. Today, it continues to be used to reinforce the gender binary, infantilise certain actors, and construct certain conversations as worthless.

          Gossip is a tool used by women and other marginalised people to share information that other systems often won’t consider. Gossip keeps our communities together, it keeps us safe, it equips us with important knowledge. The personal is political. Our intimacies are political. To gossip is a subversive act, an anti-capitalist act, and a feminist act. Let’s reclaim this act, get together and gossip! After all, what do we have to lose? We are all witches in their eyes anyway.

          Gossip as a gendered term

          Origin of Gossip

          History of Gossip

          Evolution of Gossip

          • crosswind [they/them]
            ·
            1 day ago

            As your sources say gossip as a tool can protect women. Gossip as a term, or potentially as the name for a community, can be used to oppress women. While it would be great for this site to play a role in strengthening the tool and weakening the term, it shouldn't be taken as a given that the users who are affected by this are comfortable taking on the fight of reclaiming the word, or that they think this change is effective in doing so.

            I appreciate how seriously you are taking the harm of the racist term. I don't appreciate how, at least from the outside, it looks like the position you are in of needing to defend the mods has led you to downplay the potential harm of misogyny to create a comparison.

            • CARCOSA [they/them]A
              ·
              1 day ago

              Can you please help me understand how having a gossip community is oppressive when people can choose to post in other similar communities, or choose to block the gossip community?

              Writing a few words to critically analyze the content of the post would make it eligible for !counterpropaganda@hexbear.net or a person could just choose to put it in !slop@hexbear.net could even throw a "main" in there and post it in main.

              Having Gossip in addition to the previous two allows people choosing to reclaim Gossip can do so.

              • crosswind [they/them]
                ·
                1 day ago

                Nobody's been happy with counterpropaganda, and we've heard you loud and clear.

                El Chisme continues to remain the new space for posts that would have been at home in The Dunk Tank.

                Your description is definitely not the way it's being presented in this announcement post. Maybe having gossip as a new community instead of a renaming an old one would be a good idea. That would allow much more room to explore what the liberatory aspects of the act off gossiping would look like, instead of being the place where people are looking for the twitter drama they're used to.

                • CARCOSA [they/them]A
                  ·
                  1 day ago

                  We heard you loud and clear as in making Slop for those that aren't happy with Counterprop

                  Counterprop, Gossip, and Slop can all be spaces for posts that would have been at home in the dunk tank. Users have the choice which space is right for them:

                  those that don't want to use !gossip@hexbear.net can use !counterpropaganda@hexbear.net and !slop@hexbear.net

                  those that dont want to use !slop@hexbear.net can use !gossip@hexbear.net and !counterpropaganda@hexbear.net

                  those that dont want to use !counterpropaganda@hexbear.net can use !slop@hexbear.net and !gossip@hexbear.net

                  • crosswind [they/them]
                    ·
                    1 day ago

                    I'm really not clear on what the intended usage of each community is, so I can't comment.

                    My main issue was that people's concerns about renaming a community to a term that "was used as a misogynist, oppressive tool against women" were being dismissed. I hope these concerns are taken more seriously.

                    I've had plenty of issues with how things have been handled, but I think the situation is trending in a better direction. Best of luck in finding the best course of action and in communicating your decisions clearly.

                    • CARCOSA [they/them]A
                      ·
                      1 day ago

                      Slop for what the old tanks were like

                      Gossip for an informal discussion regarding people with power / notable / tools of power

                      Counterprop for a formalized discussion regarding reactionary people no matter how powerful/notable

              • Hexboare [they/them]
                ·
                1 day ago

                It took me reading the slop rules to realise using the gossip community was optional, you can post about more notable people in slop.

                That could be a reading comprehension failure on my behalf (either the slop rules or your posts) but I'm probably (I hope) not the only one

                • CARCOSA [they/them]A
                  ·
                  1 day ago

                  The margins between the three communities are evolving and will be a conversation between the users and the mods.

                  It really does provide the ability to curate what kinds of "tank posts" you'll see.

                  Slop for what the old tanks were like

                  Gossip for an informal discussion regarding people with power / notable / tools of power

                  Counterprop for a formalized discussion regarding reactionary people no matter how powerful/notable

                  • Hexboare [they/them]
                    ·
                    1 day ago

                    Gossip for an informal discussion regarding people with power / notable / tools of power

                    That's the best description I've read so far

                    Glad you're back Carcosa

      • Antiwork
        ·
        1 day ago

        You're just creating some made up relationship between two things when there is none. Some people disagreed about this, some people disagreed about that. They're the same.

        Using Disabled for a comm name is a shit ton different than using Gossip.

        It seems the real difference and what I keep hearing is that it's the mods choice on the names they choose. If they're name is steeped in bigotry so what the mods wanted it and who are you the community to go against the mods?

        • CARCOSA [they/them]A
          ·
          1 day ago

          How is gossip steeped in bigotry? I would posit that a social concept that protected women was demonized by the patriarchy to reduce its effectiveness.

          The comparison between dunk tanks and gossip is incorrect. Women have been hurt for gossiping in defense of their community. The dunk tank is literally a violent racist thing.

          • Antiwork
            ·
            1 day ago

            Where did I compare them? You're doing that, not me.

            Many users have given you countless examples of how it's sexist and misogynistic and the mods and admins response is continuously been the community, many of whom are trans and not white, is behaving like cishet white men because the view of these select few mods is different than yours.

            It's gross and toxic behavior. It would be so easy to just listen to your community.

    • Hexboare [they/them]
      ·
      1 day ago

      While the general principle is the similar, the impact of "the dunk tank" on Black men in particular is so much worse than the connotations of gossip

      There is also work to reclaim gossip as a gendered term owing to it's contribution to women's solidarity and safety - there's no similar attempt for "dunk tank" and I'm not aware of anything positive arising from brutalising people of colour for entertainment

      I'm trying to thing of a similar phrase to dunk tank that's been decontextualised, I'll post again if I think of one