Exactly. Here one sec I wrote a thing about this a while ago. This is a section from a lil essay I wrote about monsters in fiction where I used Mushishi and the Witcher (games) as good exacmples, and LOTR as a bad example. I made some extra line breaks for readability
With stories like these to inspire us it is easy to imagine how other stories could be different. The Lord of the Rings is a beloved work, for a variety of good reasons. But there is something off putting about the way that the story presents it’s monsters. The evil creatures of middle earth were not created in the Valar’s song of creation, they were not awakened by gods who wanted them to forge their own destinies like Elves, Men and Dwarves. They are corrupted elves, who were over generations mutilated and corrupted into the cruel and short lived orcs. It is important to understand here that middle earth is a fictional world, genius I know. It was created by Tolkein and he could have used middle earth to tell any story he could have wanted. So why did he not make a story where the corruption of the Orcs was reversed?
It does not mean that we would need to expunge Boromir’s heroism, the Battle of the Hornburg, or the Battle of Pellennor Fields. What if at the final battle, under the shadow of the great black gates of the Morranon, the enemy learned of Frodo and Sam and were preparing to dispatch a group to intercept them. But decided not to. As the realization that these Men before them were willing to sacrifice everything, not just to protect their homes and families, but also to heal the corruption of Morgoth that turned the Elves into Orcs. Their enemy didn’t want to kill them, they wanted to heal them, to free them of their vile temper, hunger, and their cruel masters. And so, at the final moment, when it seemed that all hope was lost, when the swords of men were shattered, their shields splintered, it was the mercy of a people whose former love and light were all but forgotten that saved them.
And so it was that Frodo’s burden was not lifted by happenstance after a fight between two halflings under the thrall of the one ring, but by someone who would have killed them without a second thought not a few days earlier. Perhaps Orcs are immune to the ring’s seduction so the Dark Lord need not be jealous over his subordinates envy. Thus it was an Orc who casted the one ring into the fires of mount doom, and the world was borne anew.
** I love the Lord of the Rings, but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t like to see a version that ended with the corrupted elves journeying to Lothlorien to cleanse themselves of Morgoth’s taint, and embrace their newfound kin. Seeing those who were once thralls of the dark lord regain their former wisdom and compassion would be as satisfying an end as I could hope for. This is not to say that they should simply become beautiful again, only that their minds and emotions should be returned to them. Ugliness has no correlation with cruelty and it is past time that fantasy and hollywood understood that. I am excited for a future full of stories that involve finding the humanity within the unknown and the strange. Unfortunately this is an excitement borne of a desire for escapism from our world, but what are these stories for if not to fill us with hope?**
Ugliness has no correlation with cruelty and it is past time that fantasy and hollywood understood that. I am excited for a future full of stories that involve finding the humanity within the unknown and the strange.
Been having a lot of fun making an AIDungeon world in this vein, about a strange dimension populated by demon/Lovecraft inspired creatures but the most unambiguously evil faction is the human-run fantasy version of the East India Trading Company that showed up to colonize the place. Looking forward to when publishing worlds is implemented so I can share it.
Orcs are weird and Tolkien admitted he never quite figured that one out to his own satisfaction. From what I've gathered, he started with Melkor creating the Orcs and Balrogs and Dragons and stuff but revised anyone but Eru Illuvatar having access to the Secret Fire because it conflicted a bit too hard with his Catholicism to have the Vala make conscious life. The whole bit with Aule creating the Dwarves falls goes into it a bit. The courrupted elf angle never sat well with him either because that has its own issue of course. Basically he wasn't happy with the orc origins, didn't really know how to solve it but they were already in the Lord of the Rings, possibly because The Hobbit featured goblins and he was folding two separate worlds when writing LOTR to some degree and then died before finishing The Silmarillion. So as far as authorial intent goes, he did at least plan to fix it.
Also this is sort of why I like Tolkien and not most fantasy. Since there's only LOTR and The Hobbit for actual finished work the entire backstory was an interpreted gathering of notes and piecing together various drafts and whatnot which are now mostly all available to compare. Kind of like how actual myths have several versions all originally told by dead guys and we're getting it second hand from people piecing it together.
The Silmarillion is fairly exhaustive, at least in so far as any allegorical pre-history fantasy legend can be. And it was an enjoyable read.
So as far as authorial intent goes, he did at least plan to fix it.
I think the whole "Problem With Orcs" is overstated, particularly in the wake of an ultra-nationalist global conflict. If you consider these monsters the product of historical condition, and acknowledge that they're from the same stock as Elves, you can see them as a culture rather than a race. These are a people who have been born into trauma, surviving it only long enough to inflict it upon their children and their neighbors. They're a physical manifestation of cycles of violence and poverty created by the social structure to which they are born.
While there are no orc characters in JRR Tolkein's work that can explore this concept, there is the character of Gollum. He has also gone through a comparable corruptive change through his exposure to Power, the commission of grisly murders, the subject of horrific physical abuse and isolation, and the obsession with recovery of that Power. He's a very close parallel to an orc in the setting, and presents probably one of the most interesting character-studies in fantasy novels to date.
Orcs being corrupted elves could work along a similar line to Gollum since if I recall Morgoth got to a decent amount of elves before the other Valar entered Arda. That's essentially the stone age for elves so there would be plenty of time for that to work. Doesn't do much to explain what dragons and balrogs are.
It could even be less obvious than that where Arda is 'Morgoth's Ring' in that he poured a decent amount of his essence into the world to corrupt it so if he were to do so more directly to elves then they could even be fed by a desire to recreate the world in their image and the world itself is what drives the orcs into a degree of Gollum esque obsession. I need sources in front of me to bring it all together but that's been my general interpretation (of an incomplete work, head canon is way more acceptable for this kind of thing).
Doesn’t do much to explain what dragons and balrogs are.
Balrogs are corrupted Maia - minor gods, of which Sauron (once called Mairon) was the most powerful. The Balrog that Gandalf faced in the Mines of Moria was, I believe, a corrupted minor god of fire.
Dragons aren't explicitly defined as being derived from anything prior. However, one could surmise they were corrupted versions of some other ancient Mega-fauna of an earlier age.
Incidentally, Trolls are corrupted Ents.
It could even be less obvious than that where Arda is ‘Morgoth’s Ring’ in that he poured a decent amount of his essence into the world to corrupt it so if he were to do so more directly to elves then they could even be fed by a desire to recreate the world in their image and the world itself is what drives the orcs into a degree of Gollum esque obsession. I need sources in front of me to bring it all together but that’s been my general interpretation (of an incomplete work, head canon is way more acceptable for this kind of thing).
Definitely possible. Although, I think the ability to "corrupt" something is simply a power possessed by Valar and Maiar, in line with their power to mold creation as gods. The One Ring just happened to be a vessel for Sauron's god-power, and so the means to corrupt any near it.
The Morgoth's Ring idea came from a letter or something along those lines so it's hardly set in stone. His dominance over Arda for such a long time before the initial intervention of the Valar and the amount of his own energy put into it is similar to what Sauron did with The Ring but on a worldwide scale. So perhaps early elves prior to travelling to Valinor would be easier tempted and the effect be deeper since this happened literally at the beginning of elves being in the world. It seems the higher up in the pantheon you are the greater but less direct your power is. Saurumon could bend people with his voice, Sauron could bend Numenor to his will through manipulation and Morgoth can influence the very fabric of creation but they all take a degree of permanent power invested in doing so.
I am excited for a future full of stories that involve finding the humanity within the unknown and the strange. Unfortunately this is an excitement borne of a desire for escapism from our world, but what are these stories for if not to fill us with hope?
You've exactly put into words why I like reading fantasy and SF more than other genres.
Exactly. Here one sec I wrote a thing about this a while ago. This is a section from a lil essay I wrote about monsters in fiction where I used Mushishi and the Witcher (games) as good exacmples, and LOTR as a bad example. I made some extra line breaks for readability
With stories like these to inspire us it is easy to imagine how other stories could be different. The Lord of the Rings is a beloved work, for a variety of good reasons. But there is something off putting about the way that the story presents it’s monsters. The evil creatures of middle earth were not created in the Valar’s song of creation, they were not awakened by gods who wanted them to forge their own destinies like Elves, Men and Dwarves. They are corrupted elves, who were over generations mutilated and corrupted into the cruel and short lived orcs. It is important to understand here that middle earth is a fictional world, genius I know. It was created by Tolkein and he could have used middle earth to tell any story he could have wanted. So why did he not make a story where the corruption of the Orcs was reversed?
It does not mean that we would need to expunge Boromir’s heroism, the Battle of the Hornburg, or the Battle of Pellennor Fields. What if at the final battle, under the shadow of the great black gates of the Morranon, the enemy learned of Frodo and Sam and were preparing to dispatch a group to intercept them. But decided not to. As the realization that these Men before them were willing to sacrifice everything, not just to protect their homes and families, but also to heal the corruption of Morgoth that turned the Elves into Orcs. Their enemy didn’t want to kill them, they wanted to heal them, to free them of their vile temper, hunger, and their cruel masters. And so, at the final moment, when it seemed that all hope was lost, when the swords of men were shattered, their shields splintered, it was the mercy of a people whose former love and light were all but forgotten that saved them.
And so it was that Frodo’s burden was not lifted by happenstance after a fight between two halflings under the thrall of the one ring, but by someone who would have killed them without a second thought not a few days earlier. Perhaps Orcs are immune to the ring’s seduction so the Dark Lord need not be jealous over his subordinates envy. Thus it was an Orc who casted the one ring into the fires of mount doom, and the world was borne anew.
** I love the Lord of the Rings, but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t like to see a version that ended with the corrupted elves journeying to Lothlorien to cleanse themselves of Morgoth’s taint, and embrace their newfound kin. Seeing those who were once thralls of the dark lord regain their former wisdom and compassion would be as satisfying an end as I could hope for. This is not to say that they should simply become beautiful again, only that their minds and emotions should be returned to them. Ugliness has no correlation with cruelty and it is past time that fantasy and hollywood understood that. I am excited for a future full of stories that involve finding the humanity within the unknown and the strange. Unfortunately this is an excitement borne of a desire for escapism from our world, but what are these stories for if not to fill us with hope?**
Been having a lot of fun making an AIDungeon world in this vein, about a strange dimension populated by demon/Lovecraft inspired creatures but the most unambiguously evil faction is the human-run fantasy version of the East India Trading Company that showed up to colonize the place. Looking forward to when publishing worlds is implemented so I can share it.
I love this idea! This jives with my general feeling that the "high elf" archetype should be the antagonists.
Reminds me of Spire: the City Must Fall.
the british colonizing hell is on point
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goth gf < gothmog
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Angels and succubi should really switch places tbh
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The original angels looked like fucked up rubix cubes no? Or was that something else.
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Orcs are weird and Tolkien admitted he never quite figured that one out to his own satisfaction. From what I've gathered, he started with Melkor creating the Orcs and Balrogs and Dragons and stuff but revised anyone but Eru Illuvatar having access to the Secret Fire because it conflicted a bit too hard with his Catholicism to have the Vala make conscious life. The whole bit with Aule creating the Dwarves falls goes into it a bit. The courrupted elf angle never sat well with him either because that has its own issue of course. Basically he wasn't happy with the orc origins, didn't really know how to solve it but they were already in the Lord of the Rings, possibly because The Hobbit featured goblins and he was folding two separate worlds when writing LOTR to some degree and then died before finishing The Silmarillion. So as far as authorial intent goes, he did at least plan to fix it.
Also this is sort of why I like Tolkien and not most fantasy. Since there's only LOTR and The Hobbit for actual finished work the entire backstory was an interpreted gathering of notes and piecing together various drafts and whatnot which are now mostly all available to compare. Kind of like how actual myths have several versions all originally told by dead guys and we're getting it second hand from people piecing it together.
The Silmarillion is fairly exhaustive, at least in so far as any allegorical pre-history fantasy legend can be. And it was an enjoyable read.
I think the whole "Problem With Orcs" is overstated, particularly in the wake of an ultra-nationalist global conflict. If you consider these monsters the product of historical condition, and acknowledge that they're from the same stock as Elves, you can see them as a culture rather than a race. These are a people who have been born into trauma, surviving it only long enough to inflict it upon their children and their neighbors. They're a physical manifestation of cycles of violence and poverty created by the social structure to which they are born.
While there are no orc characters in JRR Tolkein's work that can explore this concept, there is the character of Gollum. He has also gone through a comparable corruptive change through his exposure to Power, the commission of grisly murders, the subject of horrific physical abuse and isolation, and the obsession with recovery of that Power. He's a very close parallel to an orc in the setting, and presents probably one of the most interesting character-studies in fantasy novels to date.
Orcs being corrupted elves could work along a similar line to Gollum since if I recall Morgoth got to a decent amount of elves before the other Valar entered Arda. That's essentially the stone age for elves so there would be plenty of time for that to work. Doesn't do much to explain what dragons and balrogs are.
It could even be less obvious than that where Arda is 'Morgoth's Ring' in that he poured a decent amount of his essence into the world to corrupt it so if he were to do so more directly to elves then they could even be fed by a desire to recreate the world in their image and the world itself is what drives the orcs into a degree of Gollum esque obsession. I need sources in front of me to bring it all together but that's been my general interpretation (of an incomplete work, head canon is way more acceptable for this kind of thing).
Balrogs are corrupted Maia - minor gods, of which Sauron (once called Mairon) was the most powerful. The Balrog that Gandalf faced in the Mines of Moria was, I believe, a corrupted minor god of fire.
Dragons aren't explicitly defined as being derived from anything prior. However, one could surmise they were corrupted versions of some other ancient Mega-fauna of an earlier age.
Incidentally, Trolls are corrupted Ents.
Definitely possible. Although, I think the ability to "corrupt" something is simply a power possessed by Valar and Maiar, in line with their power to mold creation as gods. The One Ring just happened to be a vessel for Sauron's god-power, and so the means to corrupt any near it.
The Morgoth's Ring idea came from a letter or something along those lines so it's hardly set in stone. His dominance over Arda for such a long time before the initial intervention of the Valar and the amount of his own energy put into it is similar to what Sauron did with The Ring but on a worldwide scale. So perhaps early elves prior to travelling to Valinor would be easier tempted and the effect be deeper since this happened literally at the beginning of elves being in the world. It seems the higher up in the pantheon you are the greater but less direct your power is. Saurumon could bend people with his voice, Sauron could bend Numenor to his will through manipulation and Morgoth can influence the very fabric of creation but they all take a degree of permanent power invested in doing so.
You've exactly put into words why I like reading fantasy and SF more than other genres.
:meow-hug: