Defining the proletariat as those specifically working, and then unemployed people as non-proles seems wrong to me.
If you are class-aware, and not an owner of capital, you can be part of the proletariat. I would also consider petit bourgeious, as long as you're not directly exploiting the working class (I see you landlords) as potentially proletarian these days. Marx said that the proletariat will grow to include the PMC as their labour moves towards being wage labour, and I think this is happening.
Anyway, lumpen are bootlicking scammers, bourgeious are bourgeious, and everyone else can be proletariat - if they are class aware. Even working class wage labourers aren't necessarily part of the proletariat if they have no class awareness -- although unlikely on this site.
That's how I interpret the classes as described by Marx, am I wrong?
I actually half disagree with this. For the proletariat, which is the revolutionary class consisting of members of the working class. This is why the lumpen exist, they are the reactionary membership of the people facing the same socio economic situation as workers. And why people need to be recruited to the proletariat, how it grows on size over time, and why the proletariat can "emerge" under nonspecific socioeconomic conditions.
I agree that the material conditions create the proletariat, but it is specifically the class consciousness that defines its existence. There can be a working class that is not revolutionary, and therefore not the proletariat.
I think you're right. I fully agree that regardless of consciousness anyone who could be revolutionary whether or not they are now, are comrades. But we disagree in the inclusion of class consciousness in the proletariat. I add it because Marx's definition of the proletariat as a revolutionary class suggests this as a requirement. My thoughts are what was the working class before their material conditions caused the proletariat class to form? To me it is the emergence of class consciousness, precipitated by exploitative conditions, that causes the transition from working class to proletariat -> with revolutionary potential.
It is specifically this transition that makes me believe that the revolutionary potential of the class can grow, as more people are recruited to the proletariat through education of class consciousness.
Defining the proletariat as those specifically working, and then unemployed people as non-proles seems wrong to me.
If you are class-aware, and not an owner of capital, you can be part of the proletariat. I would also consider petit bourgeious, as long as you're not directly exploiting the working class (I see you landlords) as potentially proletarian these days. Marx said that the proletariat will grow to include the PMC as their labour moves towards being wage labour, and I think this is happening.
Anyway, lumpen are bootlicking scammers, bourgeious are bourgeious, and everyone else can be proletariat - if they are class aware. Even working class wage labourers aren't necessarily part of the proletariat if they have no class awareness -- although unlikely on this site.
That's how I interpret the classes as described by Marx, am I wrong?
deleted by creator
I actually half disagree with this. For the proletariat, which is the revolutionary class consisting of members of the working class. This is why the lumpen exist, they are the reactionary membership of the people facing the same socio economic situation as workers. And why people need to be recruited to the proletariat, how it grows on size over time, and why the proletariat can "emerge" under nonspecific socioeconomic conditions.
I agree that the material conditions create the proletariat, but it is specifically the class consciousness that defines its existence. There can be a working class that is not revolutionary, and therefore not the proletariat.
deleted by creator
I think you're right. I fully agree that regardless of consciousness anyone who could be revolutionary whether or not they are now, are comrades. But we disagree in the inclusion of class consciousness in the proletariat. I add it because Marx's definition of the proletariat as a revolutionary class suggests this as a requirement. My thoughts are what was the working class before their material conditions caused the proletariat class to form? To me it is the emergence of class consciousness, precipitated by exploitative conditions, that causes the transition from working class to proletariat -> with revolutionary potential.
It is specifically this transition that makes me believe that the revolutionary potential of the class can grow, as more people are recruited to the proletariat through education of class consciousness.