Classic imperialist shite of "spreading freedom" no better than any other imperialist. DOobetter.
The USSR was the only nation to provide any support to the Republic, and it was the anarchists that fucked up by being unable to organize any kind of national army and just letting the fascists roll up their ‘independent’ cities one by one. Saying “it was Stalin’s fault” is the anarchist stab-in-the-back myth.
You can lie to yourselves all you want. Anarchists remember the backstabbing very well and the real reason why they couldn;t fight back efficiently. I'm not here to discuss with tankies though. Plenty has been written about this stalinist revisionism already.
A fascist counterrevolution, Hungary was an Axis power and it was a mere eleven years after WW2 - for “”“worker’s councils”“” they sure lynched a lot of Jewish people! Read this.
Ah yes, everything USSR wanted to conquer or quiesce is "counterevolution". Kronstadt too. Same exact bullshit every imperialist nation cooked up to invade and take over. Y'all ain't foolin' anyone you know.
So I can say that I am sectarian, because revolution is a problem that has a correct answer - there’s the answer that saved hundreds of millions of lives from fascism,
Lol, where? Show me one ML nation which is not totalitarian right now, or didn't fall back into capitalism and fascism as soon as it inevitably collapsed from the mortally defective ideology of leninism.
You can lie to yourselves all you want. Anarchists remember the backstabbing very well and the real reason why they couldn;t fight back efficiently. I'm not here to discuss with tankies though. Plenty has been written about this stalinist revisionism already.
My dude, the vast majority of Republican tanks were provided by the Soviet Union. Let's take a look at the Wikipedia article about tanks in the Spanish Civil War shall we: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tanks_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War#Tanks_supplied_by_foreign_powers
Locally produced tanks: 24-32
Soviet tanks: 331
French/Polish tanks: 64
Paraguayan tanks: 1
So out of the 420-428 tanks deployed by the Republicans, more than 75% came from the Soviet Union. This is not "backstabbing." If the Republicans didn't want the Soviet Union to "interfere" with their civil war, they could have fun with their 89 tanks versus the Francoists' 280 tanks. Yes, when you accept material aid from another country, that country has a say in the trajectory of your political project. That's literally how all aid works. The Soviet Union was not a charity. If the Republicans did not want the Soviet Union to interfere with their political project, they could've just rejected the material aid. But to accept the substantial material aid and then cry about Soviet interference is called being ungracious. It's called biting the hand that feeds you.
I haven't even gone over how some of the colonized Moroccans sided with the Francoists while none of them sided with the Republicans. You would think that the side with the socialists and anarchists would be on board with decolonization, but I guess it's horizontally organized society for white people, brutal colonial regime for brown people. The white people can own the means of production while the brown people can labor with them.
this is a ridiculous mischaracterization, the Moroccans didn't 'side' with Franco, the only Moroccans left with guns were the comprador regiments after 7 years of slaughtering the independence movement. it was still militarized and patrolled by those fuckers. You wanna talk about Popular Fronts being pro-colonial, look at France's not supporting decolonization, the Spanish one had no grasp or opportunity. if they'd somehow dropped some rifles into Morocco, if the people had the spirit to rise up at all the French would've bombed them to keep it from getting into their bit of Morocco
Lol the soviets are not a charity. Omg the fact that you post that imperialist drivel unironically is just the cherry on top. I don't have to add anything here.
You are making grievous accusations and then just saying "nah, I don't need to substantiate anything". Let me tell you, anti-intellectual wreckers and slanderers are much worse than people who want to argue against the cold war consensus.
Japanese fascists were a far bigger threat to the Soviet Union than the Nazis during the 1930s. Japan already sacked Nanjing. In one city, the Japanese fascists butchered the same amount of people as the Francoists did for the entire civil war. This is how brutal the Japanese fascists were relative to the Francoists. And unlike the Francoists, the Empire of Japan actually tried to invade the Soviet Union but got owned before venturing too far. Why should the Soviet Union send those 400+ tanks to Republican Spain without expecting something in return? If anything, the Soviet Union shouldn't have wasted material with a lost cause that is Republican Spain and shipped those tanks to the Republic of China instead where they wouldn't be squandered. One tank to Spain is one less tank to China. Frankly, Stalin bet on the wrong horse.
when the soviets were first formed, they were the working class, so what do you mean? at what point in the degeneration of the workers state are you discussing?
"Totalitarian" is a totally made-up, meaningless distinction. There is no conceivable metric by which you could call any socialist state "totalitarian" that wouldn't apply a hundredfold to the US Empire. Seriously, this conversation cannot continue unless you read Blackshirts and Reds, it sums up every point I could make to argue with you with much more depth and eloquence. If you have the slightest pretention to intellectual seriousness, go and read that. Then, once you have, message me and I'll send you a link to season 3 of a podcast called Blowback, covering the Korean war. I think you'll find it informative.
I've taken a harsh tone with you, because you need to be jolted out of this fundamentally incorrect mindset. But if you read what I've suggested and actually process the information, if you try to understand the societies you harshly criticize in the depth and richness of their actual existence and not the literal Saturday morning cartoon evil version you've had ingrained in you by a multi-trillion dollar propaganda campaign, you'll arrive at the same opinions I have now - including feeling the way I do about people espousing the views you have done. Until you understand that no "western" country has EVER come closer to socialism than the USSR, China, Cuba or the DPRK (or even had the merest potential to) you are not only useless to the international cause of the workers but an active detriment, a stooge of the Empire that is currently enslaving humanity. That might only manifest as irritating, trivial anticommunist memes on a backwater internet forum, but it still might as well be fought against, and if there's the slightest chance you can be educated into a helpful comrade then I might as well try.
No I'm not going to go do homework just to argue to you. Just because I disagree with tankie talking points doesn't mean I'm ignorant.
In any case you've missed the point that the "closest to socialism" doesn't count for shit. It will never be socialism. In fact it's just state Capitalism and always devolves into Capitalism. That's what ML always leads to when left to it's own designs. This is undeniable by now.
In fact it's just state Capitalism and always devolves into Capitalism
I will reply with a meme
Show
I'm not going to go do homework just to argue to you
Then that's the end of our conversation. I've pointed out a direction in which you can expand your knowledge, even if it's just knowledge of what your "enemy" thinks - you can have some intellectual curiosity, or you can not, but in the latter case there's no reason for me to spend further effort trying to force it upon you.
Just because I disagree with tankie talking points doesn't mean I'm ignorant.
That is true! What have you read about the Spanish civil war or the ukrainian anarchist movement from an ML perspective? I've read a fair amount of critique of the situations from an anarchist perspective and I still broadly agree with the ML take on the situation.
Goddamn! People, please! Posting a meme is not an invitation to invite me to a debate on the historical context of the Spanish Revolution. Cheezus. There's dedicated anarchist forums for that!
You complain when people take your post seriously, you complain when people dismiss it, you complain when people "put words in your mouth" and whine about straw men but do exactly those things to others, you write pages of comments but suddenly refuse to elaborate when pressed on an inconvenient point.
What are you doing here besides sectarianism and acting like a horse's ass?
Look mate, I don't owe you shit. Not even an explanation. But I'll tell you this, seeing tankies evolve into their "debate me bro" forms is amusing to me. Seeing them get more and more upset because I refuse to play their game is amusing to me. Seeing them think I'm very upset is amusing to me.
This is all the more amusing because I didn't even try to annoy tankies but they came over here to be annoyed.
Look into your heart, you know this to be true.
Y'all are buzzing around an anarchist community as if I personally kicked your hornet's nest for posting this one meme. This is amusing to me.
Y'all are good peeps when dunking on libs, but fucking hell, choose your battles, eh?
I love how condescending you are. Please do explain liberalism to me and then do continue to explain how all anarchist are immature liberals. I guarantee you I am paying attention
Maybe they could stand to have tried to have a discussion instead of a shitflinging fest, one they were doomed to lose at that.
although I think I won't entertain this keyboard masher "leftist" for much longer, they're very boring. At least @anarchost@lemm.ee had some flavor compared to the average CIAnarchist.
Yes you had to remind us four times in a single comment that you find this amusing, which is definitely something that people who totally aren't upset do all the time.
I mean, y'all seem to be incapable of understanding this simple fact, so you blame me for having to remind you all the time? I guess I didn't state it dialecticaly enough
Goddamn! People, please! Posting a meme is not an invitation to invite me to a debate on the historical context of the Spanish Revolution
Why don't you be a good little authoritarian and lock the thread then, or is that M next to your name just there to show you like taking Ls after Ls like a Masochist.
Okay, would you prefer to instead talk about the lack of anarchist purges in China and how in the meme you shared, everyone has eyes except for Mao who has slits instead? Can we talk about how that is in inappropriate way to depict Asian people?
Classic imperialist shite of "spreading freedom" no better than any other imperialist. DOobetter.
You can lie to yourselves all you want. Anarchists remember the backstabbing very well and the real reason why they couldn;t fight back efficiently. I'm not here to discuss with tankies though. Plenty has been written about this stalinist revisionism already.
Ah yes, everything USSR wanted to conquer or quiesce is "counterevolution". Kronstadt too. Same exact bullshit every imperialist nation cooked up to invade and take over. Y'all ain't foolin' anyone you know.
Lol, where? Show me one ML nation which is not totalitarian right now, or didn't fall back into capitalism and fascism as soon as it inevitably collapsed from the mortally defective ideology of leninism.
My dude, the vast majority of Republican tanks were provided by the Soviet Union. Let's take a look at the Wikipedia article about tanks in the Spanish Civil War shall we: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tanks_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War#Tanks_supplied_by_foreign_powers
Locally produced tanks: 24-32
Soviet tanks: 331
French/Polish tanks: 64
Paraguayan tanks: 1
So out of the 420-428 tanks deployed by the Republicans, more than 75% came from the Soviet Union. This is not "backstabbing." If the Republicans didn't want the Soviet Union to "interfere" with their civil war, they could have fun with their 89 tanks versus the Francoists' 280 tanks. Yes, when you accept material aid from another country, that country has a say in the trajectory of your political project. That's literally how all aid works. The Soviet Union was not a charity. If the Republicans did not want the Soviet Union to interfere with their political project, they could've just rejected the material aid. But to accept the substantial material aid and then cry about Soviet interference is called being ungracious. It's called biting the hand that feeds you.
Stop the fight!
I haven't even gone over how some of the colonized Moroccans sided with the Francoists while none of them sided with the Republicans. You would think that the side with the socialists and anarchists would be on board with decolonization, but I guess it's horizontally organized society for white people, brutal colonial regime for brown people. The white people can own the means of production while the brown people can labor with them.
this is a ridiculous mischaracterization, the Moroccans didn't 'side' with Franco, the only Moroccans left with guns were the comprador regiments after 7 years of slaughtering the independence movement. it was still militarized and patrolled by those fuckers. You wanna talk about Popular Fronts being pro-colonial, look at France's not supporting decolonization, the Spanish one had no grasp or opportunity. if they'd somehow dropped some rifles into Morocco, if the people had the spirit to rise up at all the French would've bombed them to keep it from getting into their bit of Morocco
Lol the soviets are not a charity. Omg the fact that you post that imperialist drivel unironically is just the cherry on top. I don't have to add anything here.
I'm sensing a pattern
Is the pattern that I don't have patience to entertain fools?
The pattern is that you grandstand about being above arguing to avoid needing to engage with their actual positions
man, debate me bros are the fucking worst...
You are making grievous accusations and then just saying "nah, I don't need to substantiate anything". Let me tell you, anti-intellectual wreckers and slanderers are much worse than people who want to argue against the cold war consensus.
Mate, it's a meme on an obscure forum on the internet...You need to touch some grass...
Why can't you own what you say?
I wasn't aware I didn't. Did you "This you" me somewhere?
What are you saying? "It's just a meme on an obscure forum" is absolutely failing to own the claims you are making in the post.
No, it's just me saying I don't need to enable debateme bros
Debate bro is when literally anyone asks me to back up literally any of the shit I talk
/smug emoji /chat bubble.
are you fucking 4?
Then why are you masochistically staying here as if you do?
It's a mystery!
then fuck off
Lol you're replying to everything aren't you? It's ok, stay mad 😁
If replies are a measure of rage, you must be apoplectic
Hey It's my Op, and I have a dozen Hexbears mad as hell. What's the your excuse?
@anarchost@lemm.ee is this you?
No
Japanese fascists were a far bigger threat to the Soviet Union than the Nazis during the 1930s. Japan already sacked Nanjing. In one city, the Japanese fascists butchered the same amount of people as the Francoists did for the entire civil war. This is how brutal the Japanese fascists were relative to the Francoists. And unlike the Francoists, the Empire of Japan actually tried to invade the Soviet Union but got owned before venturing too far. Why should the Soviet Union send those 400+ tanks to Republican Spain without expecting something in return? If anything, the Soviet Union shouldn't have wasted material with a lost cause that is Republican Spain and shipped those tanks to the Republic of China instead where they wouldn't be squandered. One tank to Spain is one less tank to China. Frankly, Stalin bet on the wrong horse.
That's the kind of unfiltered tankie logic I so enjoy see expressed for all the leftists to see.
I don't think a racist comic is a good look for anarchism, but you do you.
Maybe Mao is just enjoying a really pretty sunrise.
🤣🤣😂💀
"fascism bad" is tankie logic now
are you saying it was an IMF style financial imperialism dirty loan?
Genuine question!
I am saying that the soviets were never about emancipating the working class. They were always about making them a satellite state
when the soviets were first formed, they were the working class, so what do you mean? at what point in the degeneration of the workers state are you discussing?
I am talking in context of the Spanish Revolution
Right, right, sorry, forgot where this started for a sec.
so the working class of spain, and making spain into a satellite state, is what you meant? Gotcha
Isn't that like something out of HOI4?
the working class of spain, the state of spain
Thanks, the wording confused me.
words are hard, tensions are high
"Totalitarian" is a totally made-up, meaningless distinction. There is no conceivable metric by which you could call any socialist state "totalitarian" that wouldn't apply a hundredfold to the US Empire. Seriously, this conversation cannot continue unless you read Blackshirts and Reds, it sums up every point I could make to argue with you with much more depth and eloquence. If you have the slightest pretention to intellectual seriousness, go and read that. Then, once you have, message me and I'll send you a link to season 3 of a podcast called Blowback, covering the Korean war. I think you'll find it informative.
I've taken a harsh tone with you, because you need to be jolted out of this fundamentally incorrect mindset. But if you read what I've suggested and actually process the information, if you try to understand the societies you harshly criticize in the depth and richness of their actual existence and not the literal Saturday morning cartoon evil version you've had ingrained in you by a multi-trillion dollar propaganda campaign, you'll arrive at the same opinions I have now - including feeling the way I do about people espousing the views you have done. Until you understand that no "western" country has EVER come closer to socialism than the USSR, China, Cuba or the DPRK (or even had the merest potential to) you are not only useless to the international cause of the workers but an active detriment, a stooge of the Empire that is currently enslaving humanity. That might only manifest as irritating, trivial anticommunist memes on a backwater internet forum, but it still might as well be fought against, and if there's the slightest chance you can be educated into a helpful comrade then I might as well try.
No I'm not going to go do homework just to argue to you. Just because I disagree with tankie talking points doesn't mean I'm ignorant.
In any case you've missed the point that the "closest to socialism" doesn't count for shit. It will never be socialism. In fact it's just state Capitalism and always devolves into Capitalism. That's what ML always leads to when left to it's own designs. This is undeniable by now.
I will reply with a meme
Then that's the end of our conversation. I've pointed out a direction in which you can expand your knowledge, even if it's just knowledge of what your "enemy" thinks - you can have some intellectual curiosity, or you can not, but in the latter case there's no reason for me to spend further effort trying to force it upon you.
Very enlightened of you, thank you, master.
you've not read shit, the only thing you've won is the ability to be the smuggest idiot ever
That is true! What have you read about the Spanish civil war or the ukrainian anarchist movement from an ML perspective? I've read a fair amount of critique of the situations from an anarchist perspective and I still broadly agree with the ML take on the situation.
Goddamn! People, please! Posting a meme is not an invitation to invite me to a debate on the historical context of the Spanish Revolution. Cheezus. There's dedicated anarchist forums for that!
You complain when people take your post seriously, you complain when people dismiss it, you complain when people "put words in your mouth" and whine about straw men but do exactly those things to others, you write pages of comments but suddenly refuse to elaborate when pressed on an inconvenient point.
What are you doing here besides sectarianism and acting like a horse's ass?
Look mate, I don't owe you shit. Not even an explanation. But I'll tell you this, seeing tankies evolve into their "debate me bro" forms is amusing to me. Seeing them get more and more upset because I refuse to play their game is amusing to me. Seeing them think I'm very upset is amusing to me.
This is all the more amusing because I didn't even try to annoy tankies but they came over here to be annoyed.
Look into your heart, you know this to be true.
Y'all are buzzing around an anarchist community as if I personally kicked your hornet's nest for posting this one meme. This is amusing to me.
Y'all are good peeps when dunking on libs, but fucking hell, choose your battles, eh?
Wym, we're dunking on a lib right now
Oh no, sectsrianism!
liberals aren't leftists
you... do know that? Right?
You have to at least know that, right?
That's a convenient way to never be called sectarian.
Oh my god
You can't be for real, you just can't
You do know liberals are not part of the left? Answer the question, please.
I love how condescending you are. Please do explain liberalism to me and then do continue to explain how all anarchist are immature liberals. I guarantee you I am paying attention
answer the question, please
Fuck you, I won't do what you told me!
does baby want a cookie?
Hey maybe both of you could relax for a minute?
Maybe they could stand to have tried to have a discussion instead of a shitflinging fest, one they were doomed to lose at that.
although I think I won't entertain this keyboard masher "leftist" for much longer, they're very boring. At least @anarchost@lemm.ee had some flavor compared to the average CIAnarchist.
I don't think anyone really "wins" or " loses" shitflinging fests. It's better to just get out before you are covered in shit.
Ok thats a good analogy, 10/10. I have better uses of my time anyway. See ya.
You make a post directly attacking "online tankies," then act all
when said group responds to it. You brought this on yourself lmao.
Maybe you should have considered this advice before making this post to begin with.
Shocked, no. Entertained certainly
Yes you had to remind us four times in a single comment that you find this amusing, which is definitely something that people who totally aren't upset do all the time.
I mean, y'all seem to be incapable of understanding this simple fact, so you blame me for having to remind you all the time? I guess I didn't state it dialecticaly enough
deleted by creator
K
Why don't you be a good little authoritarian and lock the thread then, or is that M next to your name just there to show you like taking Ls after Ls like a Masochist.
I just love to be dunked by my Hexbears mommies and daddies.
Alright, you do you.
Keep posting memes like these and you'll aways be our little pain piggy
Okay, would you prefer to instead talk about the lack of anarchist purges in China and how in the meme you shared, everyone has eyes except for Mao who has slits instead? Can we talk about how that is in inappropriate way to depict Asian people?
"leftists" actually knowing what they're talking about and reading theory challenge (impossible if you did it you would be a tankie)
Show me one anarchist nation ever that has survived more than a couple of years or is not just a tiny commune somewhere isolated.