I'm dumb but I'm pretty sure leftist should just stop giving a fuck about religion. Pretty sure the Soviet Union showed that religion will die off once you take away it's utility as a tool for a state to control it's population and give people a reason for optimism that isn't just getting to spend an afterlife with big sky daddy.
Uh that’s kinda like saying art will die out when you take away its utility as a tool for the state to control its population,
No one ever said that.
You can already see “lowbrow” religion in expressions like liberation theology, navayana, and other liberatory interpretations of religions, as well as localized versions of religion eg. Christianity melding with local beliefs in many countries of the global periphery
This is very old and doesn't have to do with socialism.
Yeah that was the point of saying what I said lol.
But why would you compare one argument with a completely different argument that no one ever argued for?
Socialism doesn’t have much to do with abolishing things like religion and art wholesale. It’s class conflict, which happens to express itself in things like religion and art, but those things are prior to class society. Socialism only seeks to abolish those things insofar that they perpetuate class society.
Religion is already in the process of being "abolished".
To show that the original argument is one no one should argue for
But it is not at all the same argument so...
but surely you know and can recognize analogical reasoning so idk why you’re busting my chops here lol
Because I don't really see why the analogy works.
Yeah sure bourgeois liberalism was revolutionary for its time, but we are socialists. We shouldn’t settle for those conceptions of freedom and progress.
I'm not just talking about something that happened once or whatever. This is happening, now. And it's happening in pretty much every developed country. The same process will also happen to the rest of the world as it develops. It's not like socialism has to do anything special.
Socialists shouldn’t just think religion is just some highbrow, organized, institutional thing.
I don't know what you mean by "highbrow"?? Religion isn't and wasn't "highbrow" in general, that doesn't mean much.
Yes it does lol. Religion is more than just the catholic church and the separation of church and state.
Umm yeah? Like, what does that have to do with the Catholic Church, I never brought up the catholics.
It’s very liberal to have tunnel vision pointed at developed countries, and to assume the rest of the world will follow in Europe’s footsteps, and that all this is inevitable…why would it be inevitable?
It's really not just Europe. It is Asia too, as well as the more developed countries in South America. Actually East Asia is probably less religious than most of Europe now. It almost always happens when countries move away from agriculture and more towards the cities, and as the state gets more secular and detached from feudal remnants.
You're saying that there isn't enough evidence that something which has almost always happened, is by now very well known and studied, and is literally happening right now, will actually happen. It doesn't have to start happening some time in the future, it is happening right now and it has been happening for a long time now with relatively minor fluctuations and there is no sign of stopping. Pretty much the only major increase in religiosity there was on a wide scale in slightly more developed (compared to say India or most places in Africa) countries these last few decades was the collapse of communist countries. And even that trend has mostly stopped now. Like, idk, look up any relevant chart on Google or whatever. It's a very clear trend.
religion doesnt need to be a part of a communist movement necessarily, but turning a blind eye to it is silly. Obv we need to give a fuck about religious fundamentalism and oppression
I'm dumb but I'm pretty sure leftist should just stop giving a fuck about religion. Pretty sure the Soviet Union showed that religion will die off once you take away it's utility as a tool for a state to control it's population and give people a reason for optimism that isn't just getting to spend an afterlife with big sky daddy.
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No one ever said that.
This is very old and doesn't have to do with socialism.
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But why would you compare one argument with a completely different argument that no one ever argued for?
Religion is already in the process of being "abolished".
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But it is not at all the same argument so...
Because I don't really see why the analogy works.
I'm not just talking about something that happened once or whatever. This is happening, now. And it's happening in pretty much every developed country. The same process will also happen to the rest of the world as it develops. It's not like socialism has to do anything special.
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I don't know what you mean by "highbrow"?? Religion isn't and wasn't "highbrow" in general, that doesn't mean much.
Umm yeah? Like, what does that have to do with the Catholic Church, I never brought up the catholics.
It's really not just Europe. It is Asia too, as well as the more developed countries in South America. Actually East Asia is probably less religious than most of Europe now. It almost always happens when countries move away from agriculture and more towards the cities, and as the state gets more secular and detached from feudal remnants.
You're saying that there isn't enough evidence that something which has almost always happened, is by now very well known and studied, and is literally happening right now, will actually happen. It doesn't have to start happening some time in the future, it is happening right now and it has been happening for a long time now with relatively minor fluctuations and there is no sign of stopping. Pretty much the only major increase in religiosity there was on a wide scale in slightly more developed (compared to say India or most places in Africa) countries these last few decades was the collapse of communist countries. And even that trend has mostly stopped now. Like, idk, look up any relevant chart on Google or whatever. It's a very clear trend.
religion doesnt need to be a part of a communist movement necessarily, but turning a blind eye to it is silly. Obv we need to give a fuck about religious fundamentalism and oppression