Yeah that was the point of saying what I said lol.
But why would you compare one argument with a completely different argument that no one ever argued for?
Socialism doesn’t have much to do with abolishing things like religion and art wholesale. It’s class conflict, which happens to express itself in things like religion and art, but those things are prior to class society. Socialism only seeks to abolish those things insofar that they perpetuate class society.
Religion is already in the process of being "abolished".
To show that the original argument is one no one should argue for
But it is not at all the same argument so...
but surely you know and can recognize analogical reasoning so idk why you’re busting my chops here lol
Because I don't really see why the analogy works.
Yeah sure bourgeois liberalism was revolutionary for its time, but we are socialists. We shouldn’t settle for those conceptions of freedom and progress.
I'm not just talking about something that happened once or whatever. This is happening, now. And it's happening in pretty much every developed country. The same process will also happen to the rest of the world as it develops. It's not like socialism has to do anything special.
Socialists shouldn’t just think religion is just some highbrow, organized, institutional thing.
I don't know what you mean by "highbrow"?? Religion isn't and wasn't "highbrow" in general, that doesn't mean much.
Yes it does lol. Religion is more than just the catholic church and the separation of church and state.
Umm yeah? Like, what does that have to do with the Catholic Church, I never brought up the catholics.
It’s very liberal to have tunnel vision pointed at developed countries, and to assume the rest of the world will follow in Europe’s footsteps, and that all this is inevitable…why would it be inevitable?
It's really not just Europe. It is Asia too, as well as the more developed countries in South America. Actually East Asia is probably less religious than most of Europe now. It almost always happens when countries move away from agriculture and more towards the cities, and as the state gets more secular and detached from feudal remnants.
You're saying that there isn't enough evidence that something which has almost always happened, is by now very well known and studied, and is literally happening right now, will actually happen. It doesn't have to start happening some time in the future, it is happening right now and it has been happening for a long time now with relatively minor fluctuations and there is no sign of stopping. Pretty much the only major increase in religiosity there was on a wide scale in slightly more developed (compared to say India or most places in Africa) countries these last few decades was the collapse of communist countries. And even that trend has mostly stopped now. Like, idk, look up any relevant chart on Google or whatever. It's a very clear trend.
I was talking about putting Europe on a pedestal and assuming the rest of the world must follow its path in history, or otherwise label them as something alien to “regular” humanity or whatever. But okay, cool, there’s trends and charts and other Steven Pinker bullshit. I’m not interested in that kinda dogmatism informing my understanding of the world though.
What are you talking about, this is historically documented for decades if not centuries, and in fact anticipated and correctly predicted by countless theorists. And again, it's not just Europe. I don't know why you keep bringing up Europe. East Asia is less religious than Europe. China is much less religious than Europe.
Why do you handwave at India and Africa though?
Because they're not even close to developed??? Like, that's kind of the whole argument, did you just miss that???
Also no. Religion is not in slow decline. It is in very, very rapid decline, except for countries which are not developed yet, and which have high birth rates (although even that is expected to level out in the coming decades), so yeah, as an aggregate, decline is slow. It is not unclear what the overall tendency is however. If you wanna dismiss it as "Steven Pinker shit" whatever, I don't care.
I don't know why you're now trying to spin my argument as "religion already doesn't exist" or "religion already isn't important everywhere".
You can’t just simply solve the social problems there by waiting for everyone to realize god is dead.
Which no one ever said. And I don't even know why it has to enter the conversation. Are you planning to solve the problems Cameroon is facing? The reality is that neither you nor anyone here unless they live in Cameroon can do anything much for Cameroon's problems, not now and possibly not ever. But like 90% of this place comes from the US and the rest are mostly from developed nations where religion is in sharp decline.
so all we need to do is just need to wait all this out for -70 years or so apparently
What does "waiting" have to do with it? It's a historical process, it doesn't care how much you want to wait or whatever. That's not the argument. I am telling you that abolition of religion is completely different from abolition of art, and it's probably gonna largely happen eventually regardless of what socialists do. It's not some shaky pie in the sky hypothetical, it's not dogmatism, it's very well documented and well studied by now. History is not a bunch of random shit happening, neither is it a flat circle.
But why would you compare one argument with a completely different argument that no one ever argued for?
Religion is already in the process of being "abolished".
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But it is not at all the same argument so...
Because I don't really see why the analogy works.
I'm not just talking about something that happened once or whatever. This is happening, now. And it's happening in pretty much every developed country. The same process will also happen to the rest of the world as it develops. It's not like socialism has to do anything special.
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I don't know what you mean by "highbrow"?? Religion isn't and wasn't "highbrow" in general, that doesn't mean much.
Umm yeah? Like, what does that have to do with the Catholic Church, I never brought up the catholics.
It's really not just Europe. It is Asia too, as well as the more developed countries in South America. Actually East Asia is probably less religious than most of Europe now. It almost always happens when countries move away from agriculture and more towards the cities, and as the state gets more secular and detached from feudal remnants.
You're saying that there isn't enough evidence that something which has almost always happened, is by now very well known and studied, and is literally happening right now, will actually happen. It doesn't have to start happening some time in the future, it is happening right now and it has been happening for a long time now with relatively minor fluctuations and there is no sign of stopping. Pretty much the only major increase in religiosity there was on a wide scale in slightly more developed (compared to say India or most places in Africa) countries these last few decades was the collapse of communist countries. And even that trend has mostly stopped now. Like, idk, look up any relevant chart on Google or whatever. It's a very clear trend.
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What are you talking about, this is historically documented for decades if not centuries, and in fact anticipated and correctly predicted by countless theorists. And again, it's not just Europe. I don't know why you keep bringing up Europe. East Asia is less religious than Europe. China is much less religious than Europe.
Because they're not even close to developed??? Like, that's kind of the whole argument, did you just miss that???
Also no. Religion is not in slow decline. It is in very, very rapid decline, except for countries which are not developed yet, and which have high birth rates (although even that is expected to level out in the coming decades), so yeah, as an aggregate, decline is slow. It is not unclear what the overall tendency is however. If you wanna dismiss it as "Steven Pinker shit" whatever, I don't care.
I don't know why you're now trying to spin my argument as "religion already doesn't exist" or "religion already isn't important everywhere".
Which no one ever said. And I don't even know why it has to enter the conversation. Are you planning to solve the problems Cameroon is facing? The reality is that neither you nor anyone here unless they live in Cameroon can do anything much for Cameroon's problems, not now and possibly not ever. But like 90% of this place comes from the US and the rest are mostly from developed nations where religion is in sharp decline.
What does "waiting" have to do with it? It's a historical process, it doesn't care how much you want to wait or whatever. That's not the argument. I am telling you that abolition of religion is completely different from abolition of art, and it's probably gonna largely happen eventually regardless of what socialists do. It's not some shaky pie in the sky hypothetical, it's not dogmatism, it's very well documented and well studied by now. History is not a bunch of random shit happening, neither is it a flat circle.
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Yeah not making up shit about what people are saying is so reddit.