Learn to read. It has literally nothing to due with them being Muslims. My criticism is that they are Islamists. If you are unable to make that distinction then there's a problem. When I do militant activity (almost every day), I do actually encounter a issue due to Islamism, especially in relation to trying to organize in support of Palestine. So frankly if I had to guess Id say that you're probably an ultraleftist yank masquerading as an ML who has never been involved in the construction of an actual Leninist party.
Hell, I guess I'll make a real reply too. The struggle for national liberation comes first, which in the present context universally means the struggle against western domination. Islamists aren't your enemy either except where they serve western interests, which Iran plainly does not. Whining about the DPRK allowing a mosque serves only western interests, like most criticisms of AES states coming from outside of those states
The west is the foremost enemy of communism, globally. My stance has nothing to do with whether I think a political entity is good or bad, as you put it. My stance is that AES states know what they're doing better than some bozo on the internet. Do you think the DPRK thinks Iran is its bestie?
You want to talk about doing militant action on the daily? You want to talk about sass? That's rich coming from the person saying that the DPRK is "supposed to be an ML country"
I didn't say that the DPRK were not Communist, though I'd also argue that any serious analysis of the history of the place, to the extent we have access to it( though lack of evidence doesn't imply any positive conclusions either, something many people here also seem not to understand), also leaves much to be desired, though that obviously is materially very much a result of the incredibly difficult position they have always found themselves in.
Again, you are not actually making an effort to respond to what I'm saying, and you're responding moralistically. You're embarrassing yourself. Take the L and move on. If you can't actually argue these points in terms of there content, but have to always retreat to a meta-position over the argument call someone a bozo, then that says a lot more about the weakness of what you're saying than what I am saying.
You really need to get over this infantile idea that the only people who can any have any possible legitimate opinion on the place Fuck off with that reactionary nationalism. Since when has ever been the case in the history of communism? I guess Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin's opinions on places they had never been were always totally incorrect then? You seem to be implying that when convenient. The only criterion is the arguments and evidence you have, and you haven't provided any real substantial ones, making a bunch of simplications, and invalidly reasoning to conclusions that what you are saying doesn't imply.
You want to know what communists from these places think? Again: please tell my comrades who have had their families raped, murdered and tortured by Islamists that they are not in fact reactionary or their enemies. You're rather conveniently ignoring this point.
Even if (which I agree is a fact) the US-hegemonic Imperialist system is the primary enemy of communism in an overall sense, or the most powerful enemy of communist movements, and so there has to be anti-imperialism as a central focus of any leftist movement, and this has to recognize that otherwise deeply reactionary groups are currently the only armed means for opposing Israeli fascism, settler-colonialism, apartheid and imperialism, and that that implies that communists there have to cooperate (all of which is obvious and not what is up for discussion), you making the inference that this implies that there cannot be opposition to anything else more broadly, or that Communists should not clearly express their opposition to, and criticisms of, far-right theocracy because they are opposed to US imperialism, is so infantile and detached from reality that it honestly beggars belief. This isnt fucking hearts of iron. Some people are actually communists in these societies. Doing apologism for reactionary groups simply because they oppose the West is opposed to them is itself doing the anti-communist propaganda of the West for them.
Why would I make an effort to respond to your essay-length strawmen? You assert your credentials as though I know you and can verify them, when that's more true of the nation you're criticizing. We're all internet bozos when we're on the internet because it's a trustless environment, and in that setting no one has standing to meaningfully criticize the decisions of AES states. You are not Marx, Engels, Lenin, or Stalin. If you have the standing that you sanctimoniously claim, then write an article.
The only thing accomplished by English-speaking internet bozos whining about Islamism is to muddy the water surrounding Western aggression against Islamic states, and to disconcert support for AES states whose interests are currently aligned enough with them that they choose varying degrees of cooperation.
I'm not dropping any credentials. I'm making reference to evidence. You can believe it or not, that's your prerogative and obviously it's convenient for you to not believe it because you actually can't talk about the relevant content, but just have to resort to ad-hominens, not justifying anything you are saying, not providing arguments or evidence, as if Marxism implied that these don't matter, which again tells me you are posing ultra whose positions are vulgar materialism's at best.
Never said I was any of those people. Why would I? You are claiming that a position I am expressing is reactionary, and then using that to disregard every other opinion expressed, which would make these other individuals I'd guess you would claim to agree with also reactionaries, and would Like Lenin and Marx would be Islamophobic ten-fold more than me, as would a huge number of communists in the Islamic world, if your conditions for it were correct. WTF does me not being them have to do with anything? What matters are the actual reasons you can give for the political position you are putting forward, and your's amounts to betrayal of communists outside of the west and cowardice for the sake of virtue-signalling.
If I give reasons, and you can't respond to them, except through the classic abusive partner tactic of pre-emptively accusing the other person in the discussion of what you have embarrassingly shown yourself to be guilty of at length (straw men) because you don't actually know what you're talking about, then again that says far more negative about your position than mine. If you are going to complain about a Marxist on a communist forum giving long-length explanations and arguments for views, then grow the fuck up you ultra. The idea that suddenly people can't make reference to their own experience has never been the case here, so well done for just inventing that ad hoc to avoid the fact that you are happy to be silent about atrocities against comrades in other countries because you feel you lose virtue points. That's called cowardice.
I live in the West now, but I am not from the West. I moved here. So watch your fucking mouth. If you think I am having these conversations only in English then you again don't know what you're talking about. And yeh I do write articles. In English and not in English. Since when what that exclusive with discussing with other comrades on a forum? Again you're just inventing ad hoc shit but you have nothing to contribute.
I'm sick and tired of this take that all you crypto Christian, self-hating masochistic cracker yanks have, where you are so insecure about being American that you have to be as ultra as possible to virtue-signal as hard as possible about how opposed you are to yankie imperialism, where you claim that any negative comment about any group outside the West is therefore somehow metaphysically supporting western imperialism, which is such a bizarre argument it's ridiculous that time even has to be spent dealing with it. I am muddying nothing. I'm being clear. You are muddying and not expressing what you think because of either cowardice, embarrassment or ignorance.
Like it's embarrassing that either you can't understand that the following two propositions can be believe at the same time, or that people are too stupid to be able to do so: namely (1) that Islamists are reactionary and are key obstacles to communist (left-wing more broadly) political organization in those countries, and (2) that Islamic countries are victims of Western Imperialism. Like if you really think all that, you are literally in the grip of infantile disorder. Both these things are true you dullard. What do you think it looks like when you write that? It looks either like you don't think they are reactionary, in which case you're reactionary, or like you are admitting implicitly that they are but that you think workers are too stupid to be able to understand that, and so you are expressing a classist position. Again reactionary. It's precisely one of your tasks as a militant to bring people to that correct position. Again, if you don't understand how necessary that is, then you are reminding me that you are not involved in any militant or party activity, but in those contexts you have to formulate serious responses to that, and you will look like a dolt to your working class if all you can say is 'we don't want to make clear our opposition to all forms of far-right politics. Like you do understand that other people literally live in countries where the influence of Islamism is actually a thing? If you want to organize Muslims workers, you have to combat it, because otherwise you are at a disadvantage.
Also, you do understand that there are Islamists in power who are supported by the West? So what, in those cases you only recognize how reactionary they are to the extent they receive Western support? Again: stop projecting your infantile, ignorant yankie view on the rest of the world. You have literally achieved the least of any communist tradition, practically or theoretically. An AES can do real politik all they like. The idea every communist in the world is obliged to follow them to the letter is not only intellectually lazy but also incoherent, as they contradict one-another frequently. They can also be wrong. They can engage in revisionism. You just ad hoc assuming that they necessarily have a correct take has never been the correct ideological practice of any successful communist party. I'm guessing again you haven't looked at the debates within communist parties over similar questions from the last hundred years if that is your view. China has had plenty of positive things to say about Israel. No-one here is about to repeat those, because the actual concrete content of the situation in Palestine obviously calls for unambiguous support for Palestinian liberation from Israeli fascism.
All AES have freedom of religion with party officials acting as regulators to ensure imperialism does not enter through religion.
Read the Chinese Community Party Central Committee's The Basic Viewpoint and Policy on the Religious Question during Our Country's Socialist Period from 1982 (also called Document 19). In addition to banning feudal religious rights and foreign missions agencies, they also admit that making religion illegal does more harm than good and make plans for the future by creating regulatory bodies for each major religion. In doing so, they are allowing people to be religious within the confines of a communist society rather than capitalist imperialism. They also predict a consistent decrease in religiosity but, in the 40 years since it's publication, religiosity has continued to increase in China.
DPRK has a Buddhist Federation and Christian Federation to supervise all activities. They seem a bit laxer than CPC, perhaps due to Kim Il Sung's Christian upbringing.
The policies of banning cults has been successful in China, Falun Gong and the Moonies being the most popular ones stamped out.
The building of communism is the priority. Religion serves to bolster that and gives a connection to non-communist communities as a way to continue to build an internationalist vision of communism.
If China and North Korea understand this, have had massive success in doing so (nevermind Cuba among others) and are succeeding in building communism in spite of fucking everything this world throws at them, I'd say it's a good example to follow.
Xi has increased regulation recently to combat this, but yeah, it's still a problem. Vatican still cries about not having any say over the Chinese Catholics which is very funny to me
Yes. I'm very aware. I'm guessing you haven't seen other points where I'm fine with great degree of freedom of religion, indeed more than the vast majority of people on this site. You seem to be missing my point, which is that ML having to compromise through relations with Islamist theocratic states is a shame, in particular as the particular form of Shia Islam promoted by Iran is particularly nefarious, it being Islamist.
Global south liberation is more important than handwringing about specifics like this. When hands are finally off a region, they'll be allowed to develop in their own way, and then the basis for a revolution will be even more possible. AES forming an anti-Occidental bloc to combat is more important for our vision than insisting that these societies must now immediately conform to our ideas. Not to say queer lib, women's lib, worker lib, etc is not important; but instead that by working against these countries we delay those things even more.
OP’s comment made no implication of being against Islamism “more” than western imperialism. They’re just expressing disappointment in the relationship because even if it’s necessary for North Korea to survive, it still violates basic principles of international socialism and their own history.
Am I not allowed to be upset with Vietnam for having close ties to Israel and the US even though it needs to develop as a nation? What about China’s history of suppressing communists to spite the USSR (and now to form relations with the Philippines)? You don’t need to hold back views of the status quo just because there are greater threats out there, especially on an irrelevant forum where posts mean little.
In real life, I have to bite my own tongue over Hamas because the enemy doesn’t give a shit about nuance when you’re protesting and shutting things down. But on a website where nothing is happening, it doesn’t hurt to express disappointment that communists must compromise so much just to not be exterminated. My jokes about Hamas are more black and white because it serves to piss Zionists off, but when talking with other communists, well, I don’t fucking like them.
AES forming an anti-Occidental bloc to combat is more important for our vision than insisting that these societies must now immediately conform to our ideas.
Yes, of course. I like to compare it to the weird ideology of unions saving the world. If BRICS gets what it wants and the countries get more power and influence - great. Awesome. But look at the Americans - why would people give up their small, propagandized “luxuries” if every force and institution is pushing for the status quo, or even a mythical “before time” when everything was somehow greater? China already said it doesn’t export revolution, and I highly doubt that’s some 5D chess by Xi to hide his power levels until production forces are built. What little pro-revolution support China had for the third world during the 20th century is long gone. It’s the era of realpolitik, and everyone’s compromising. You can have hope all you want, but I prefer to look at what’s happening now and be disappointed in reality.
Removed by mod
Know your enemy
It ain't fuckin' Muslims
Learn to read. It has literally nothing to due with them being Muslims. My criticism is that they are Islamists. If you are unable to make that distinction then there's a problem. When I do militant activity (almost every day), I do actually encounter a issue due to Islamism, especially in relation to trying to organize in support of Palestine. So frankly if I had to guess Id say that you're probably an ultraleftist yank masquerading as an ML who has never been involved in the construction of an actual Leninist party.
Hell, I guess I'll make a real reply too. The struggle for national liberation comes first, which in the present context universally means the struggle against western domination. Islamists aren't your enemy either except where they serve western interests, which Iran plainly does not. Whining about the DPRK allowing a mosque serves only western interests, like most criticisms of AES states coming from outside of those states
Removed by mod
The west is the foremost enemy of communism, globally. My stance has nothing to do with whether I think a political entity is good or bad, as you put it. My stance is that AES states know what they're doing better than some bozo on the internet. Do you think the DPRK thinks Iran is its bestie?
You want to talk about doing militant action on the daily? You want to talk about sass? That's rich coming from the person saying that the DPRK is "supposed to be an ML country"
I didn't say that the DPRK were not Communist, though I'd also argue that any serious analysis of the history of the place, to the extent we have access to it( though lack of evidence doesn't imply any positive conclusions either, something many people here also seem not to understand), also leaves much to be desired, though that obviously is materially very much a result of the incredibly difficult position they have always found themselves in.
Again, you are not actually making an effort to respond to what I'm saying, and you're responding moralistically. You're embarrassing yourself. Take the L and move on. If you can't actually argue these points in terms of there content, but have to always retreat to a meta-position over the argument call someone a bozo, then that says a lot more about the weakness of what you're saying than what I am saying.
You really need to get over this infantile idea that the only people who can any have any possible legitimate opinion on the place Fuck off with that reactionary nationalism. Since when has ever been the case in the history of communism? I guess Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin's opinions on places they had never been were always totally incorrect then? You seem to be implying that when convenient. The only criterion is the arguments and evidence you have, and you haven't provided any real substantial ones, making a bunch of simplications, and invalidly reasoning to conclusions that what you are saying doesn't imply.
You want to know what communists from these places think? Again: please tell my comrades who have had their families raped, murdered and tortured by Islamists that they are not in fact reactionary or their enemies. You're rather conveniently ignoring this point.
Even if (which I agree is a fact) the US-hegemonic Imperialist system is the primary enemy of communism in an overall sense, or the most powerful enemy of communist movements, and so there has to be anti-imperialism as a central focus of any leftist movement, and this has to recognize that otherwise deeply reactionary groups are currently the only armed means for opposing Israeli fascism, settler-colonialism, apartheid and imperialism, and that that implies that communists there have to cooperate (all of which is obvious and not what is up for discussion), you making the inference that this implies that there cannot be opposition to anything else more broadly, or that Communists should not clearly express their opposition to, and criticisms of, far-right theocracy because they are opposed to US imperialism, is so infantile and detached from reality that it honestly beggars belief. This isnt fucking hearts of iron. Some people are actually communists in these societies. Doing apologism for reactionary groups simply because they oppose the West is opposed to them is itself doing the anti-communist propaganda of the West for them.
Why would I make an effort to respond to your essay-length strawmen? You assert your credentials as though I know you and can verify them, when that's more true of the nation you're criticizing. We're all internet bozos when we're on the internet because it's a trustless environment, and in that setting no one has standing to meaningfully criticize the decisions of AES states. You are not Marx, Engels, Lenin, or Stalin. If you have the standing that you sanctimoniously claim, then write an article.
The only thing accomplished by English-speaking internet bozos whining about Islamism is to muddy the water surrounding Western aggression against Islamic states, and to disconcert support for AES states whose interests are currently aligned enough with them that they choose varying degrees of cooperation.
I'm not dropping any credentials. I'm making reference to evidence. You can believe it or not, that's your prerogative and obviously it's convenient for you to not believe it because you actually can't talk about the relevant content, but just have to resort to ad-hominens, not justifying anything you are saying, not providing arguments or evidence, as if Marxism implied that these don't matter, which again tells me you are posing ultra whose positions are vulgar materialism's at best.
Never said I was any of those people. Why would I? You are claiming that a position I am expressing is reactionary, and then using that to disregard every other opinion expressed, which would make these other individuals I'd guess you would claim to agree with also reactionaries, and would Like Lenin and Marx would be Islamophobic ten-fold more than me, as would a huge number of communists in the Islamic world, if your conditions for it were correct. WTF does me not being them have to do with anything? What matters are the actual reasons you can give for the political position you are putting forward, and your's amounts to betrayal of communists outside of the west and cowardice for the sake of virtue-signalling.
If I give reasons, and you can't respond to them, except through the classic abusive partner tactic of pre-emptively accusing the other person in the discussion of what you have embarrassingly shown yourself to be guilty of at length (straw men) because you don't actually know what you're talking about, then again that says far more negative about your position than mine. If you are going to complain about a Marxist on a communist forum giving long-length explanations and arguments for views, then grow the fuck up you ultra. The idea that suddenly people can't make reference to their own experience has never been the case here, so well done for just inventing that ad hoc to avoid the fact that you are happy to be silent about atrocities against comrades in other countries because you feel you lose virtue points. That's called cowardice.
I live in the West now, but I am not from the West. I moved here. So watch your fucking mouth. If you think I am having these conversations only in English then you again don't know what you're talking about. And yeh I do write articles. In English and not in English. Since when what that exclusive with discussing with other comrades on a forum? Again you're just inventing ad hoc shit but you have nothing to contribute.
I'm sick and tired of this take that all you crypto Christian, self-hating masochistic cracker yanks have, where you are so insecure about being American that you have to be as ultra as possible to virtue-signal as hard as possible about how opposed you are to yankie imperialism, where you claim that any negative comment about any group outside the West is therefore somehow metaphysically supporting western imperialism, which is such a bizarre argument it's ridiculous that time even has to be spent dealing with it. I am muddying nothing. I'm being clear. You are muddying and not expressing what you think because of either cowardice, embarrassment or ignorance.
Like it's embarrassing that either you can't understand that the following two propositions can be believe at the same time, or that people are too stupid to be able to do so: namely (1) that Islamists are reactionary and are key obstacles to communist (left-wing more broadly) political organization in those countries, and (2) that Islamic countries are victims of Western Imperialism. Like if you really think all that, you are literally in the grip of infantile disorder. Both these things are true you dullard. What do you think it looks like when you write that? It looks either like you don't think they are reactionary, in which case you're reactionary, or like you are admitting implicitly that they are but that you think workers are too stupid to be able to understand that, and so you are expressing a classist position. Again reactionary. It's precisely one of your tasks as a militant to bring people to that correct position. Again, if you don't understand how necessary that is, then you are reminding me that you are not involved in any militant or party activity, but in those contexts you have to formulate serious responses to that, and you will look like a dolt to your working class if all you can say is 'we don't want to make clear our opposition to all forms of far-right politics. Like you do understand that other people literally live in countries where the influence of Islamism is actually a thing? If you want to organize Muslims workers, you have to combat it, because otherwise you are at a disadvantage.
Also, you do understand that there are Islamists in power who are supported by the West? So what, in those cases you only recognize how reactionary they are to the extent they receive Western support? Again: stop projecting your infantile, ignorant yankie view on the rest of the world. You have literally achieved the least of any communist tradition, practically or theoretically. An AES can do real politik all they like. The idea every communist in the world is obliged to follow them to the letter is not only intellectually lazy but also incoherent, as they contradict one-another frequently. They can also be wrong. They can engage in revisionism. You just ad hoc assuming that they necessarily have a correct take has never been the correct ideological practice of any successful communist party. I'm guessing again you haven't looked at the debates within communist parties over similar questions from the last hundred years if that is your view. China has had plenty of positive things to say about Israel. No-one here is about to repeat those, because the actual concrete content of the situation in Palestine obviously calls for unambiguous support for Palestinian liberation from Israeli fascism.
Learn to write, and then stop because your opinions are shit
Ohhh spicy drama, could you please repost the removed comment but I guess make it more palatable so I know what you 2 are arguing about?
It's in the modlog if you wanna check. I'm not confident in my ability to rephrase what they said in a more normal way.
nerd
deleted by creator
okay
good so we're on the same page that at best it's commendable political pragmatism.
All AES have freedom of religion with party officials acting as regulators to ensure imperialism does not enter through religion.
If China and North Korea understand this, have had massive success in doing so (nevermind Cuba among others) and are succeeding in building communism in spite of fucking everything this world throws at them, I'd say it's a good example to follow.
lol this has lapsed
Xi has increased regulation recently to combat this, but yeah, it's still a problem. Vatican still cries about not having any say over the Chinese Catholics which is very funny to me
Yes. I'm very aware. I'm guessing you haven't seen other points where I'm fine with great degree of freedom of religion, indeed more than the vast majority of people on this site. You seem to be missing my point, which is that ML having to compromise through relations with Islamist theocratic states is a shame, in particular as the particular form of Shia Islam promoted by Iran is particularly nefarious, it being Islamist.
Global south liberation is more important than handwringing about specifics like this. When hands are finally off a region, they'll be allowed to develop in their own way, and then the basis for a revolution will be even more possible. AES forming an anti-Occidental bloc to combat
is more important for our vision than insisting that these societies must now immediately conform to our ideas. Not to say queer lib, women's lib, worker lib, etc is not important; but instead that by working against these countries we delay those things even more.
Opposing Islamism more than Euro Dominance just makes you a nerd like Christopher Hitchens.
OP’s comment made no implication of being against Islamism “more” than western imperialism. They’re just expressing disappointment in the relationship because even if it’s necessary for North Korea to survive, it still violates basic principles of international socialism and their own history.
Am I not allowed to be upset with Vietnam for having close ties to Israel and the US even though it needs to develop as a nation? What about China’s history of suppressing communists to spite the USSR (and now to form relations with the Philippines)? You don’t need to hold back views of the status quo just because there are greater threats out there, especially on an irrelevant forum where posts mean little.
In real life, I have to bite my own tongue over Hamas because the enemy doesn’t give a shit about nuance when you’re protesting and shutting things down. But on a website where nothing is happening, it doesn’t hurt to express disappointment that communists must compromise so much just to not be exterminated. My jokes about Hamas are more black and white because it serves to piss Zionists off, but when talking with other communists, well, I don’t fucking like them.
Yes, of course. I like to compare it to the weird ideology of unions saving the world. If BRICS gets what it wants and the countries get more power and influence - great. Awesome. But look at the Americans - why would people give up their small, propagandized “luxuries” if every force and institution is pushing for the status quo, or even a mythical “before time” when everything was somehow greater? China already said it doesn’t export revolution, and I highly doubt that’s some 5D chess by Xi to hide his power levels until production forces are built. What little pro-revolution support China had for the third world during the 20th century is long gone. It’s the era of realpolitik, and everyone’s compromising. You can have hope all you want, but I prefer to look at what’s happening now and be disappointed in reality.