To be fair to the scientific community, one more collider is probably more valuable to society than the equivalent cost of bombs and military equipment
Yeah, people really focus on the fact that we don't evidence for very exotic theories and completely ignore the LHC finally got experimental confirmation of the particle that gives mass to other particles within the standard model. (I guess Higgs mechanism technically wasn't part of the standard model prior to experimental confirmation but styll)
disproving things is much more fundamental to the scientific process than actually confirming things. Confirming things is a bizarre byproduct, a happy accident. We must foster a culture that celebrates a killed hypothesis more than a confirmed one.
Something was disproven here, the null hypothesis of "the standard model without the higgs mechanism is sufficient to explain all known physical phenomena".
I don't think it's wrong to see poverty and equality as a priority over that, if I'm honest. It shouldn't be that surprising that people have an issue with billions of dollars being spent on things not currently improving lives when there are people living like hell.
But that’s entirely a problem of distribution of goods stemming from the predominant mode of economic organisation. Not building a larger particle collider would solve exactly zero problems which stem from capitalist distribution of goods and resulting artificial scarcity.
Sure. But that doesn't change people being upset that this is prioritised over living standards and lifestyles. People want that solved first and that's a perfectly ok emotion to be having that shouldn't be chastised.
The thing to push is that with capitalism is that they would rather fund this than feed and house people, because not feeding people is the point, by design. Even if this is unprofitable, it's still a thing they'd prefer to spend on than feed or house people.
Is there a world in which clearing land of animals, people, etc to make room for mines, extracting tons of ore from the ground, shipping(very harmful in and of itself in this society) it to a second place (cleared, etc) to be forged (at high temperatures requiring some energy source shipped from a third place (cleared etc)) and then shipping it to a fourth place (cleared, etc) to be built into a giant energy-consumer for perpetuity won't be harmful?
In a leftist utopia we wouldn't prioritize either because we'd do both. In a transitory state we could do plenty of both (see China), and the cost of this project is not large relative to national projects like housing, education (which this is part of anyway), or healthcare for all. In our current capitalist hellscape shutting this type of research down would reduce no poverty and win no allies.
We're always going to allocate resources to projects that do not address the most basic of needs. Criticism of that comes from a much better place than reactionaries yelling "you can't complain about being poor unless you live like a monk," but you can make all the same arguments against it.
because its hard to see any value in fundamental physics research when we can't even figure out how to live on this planet in a sustainable way that doesn't involve killing hundreds of millions of people and destroying vast parts of its ecosystem and exterminating half+ of all species on earth?
The scientests doing this research have been screaming at the top of their lungs how we could live sustainably for 6 decades.
"Scientific research is a waste because capitalism exists" is up there with "why should I have to use paper straws when billionaires have private planes" level take
if we can manage that, though, it would be kinda useful to already have a head-start on the particle colliding. More practically, the absolute peak of money for the sciences is a drop in the bucket compared to heavy industry, which is were most of the sustainability work needs to be done.
the difference is with nasa we can name dozens of advancements that help people off the top of our heads but i cant even get someone to name something theoretical that might help the common man from the confirmation of the higgs-boson
so, maybe help out with that, what theoretically can we hope that we might improve our lives through confirming that particle
additionally chuds want to defund nasa to fund the military and prisons whereas id use the money from that particle thing to house homeless or invest in indigenous communities
so in short suck it nerd because it is in fact worthless to me, personally
Although I'm highly sympathetic to this argument until we have much better material conditions in socialism, I think your argument misses a significant dialectical process which must be taken into account and a reason that fundamental research is still necessary and good most of the time. Namely, the quantity -> quality relation. Fundamental research seems to have little effect until it's quantity reaches a threshold where it becomes obvious how it can be used and what sort of benefits there will be in using it, whereupon the quality of that research shifts to no longer being called "fundamental research" and becomes now its own field of research or applied research. Finding where these will appear is a difficult, though hopefully possible, endeavor.
If you argument is that fundamental research in particles will never result in that shift, I'm excited to hear how you reasoned that no contradiction/drive in the dialectics of nature found by colliders will be useful to our material conditions. I suspect you may be right but don't think I'm one who could possibly credibly say so, and therefore don't claim that it's useless.
If your argument is that fundamental research is too far away from results to make such decisions, i would really like to hear how we measure and understand this, because it feels like you know more about the threshold than me.
If your argument is that we should not focus on that when problems exist now: this is true, but can we possibly even call this focus? The money is miniscule in relation to the huge sums elsewhere and your focus on this is the real problem. You're then not necessarily wrong, but you're not fighting the most important fights.
The study of molecules was fruitful once chemical relations started being understood and used and resulted in some people "wasting time" on studying atoms. Those theories were useless except to probe what chemicists were doing already. Until the understanding reached a point that its exploitation became possible. Then the researchers were doing a science to utilize the energy of those atoms beyond the point where chemistry could apply as a framework. When this will occur again I don't dare claim.
I'm not the original person you responded to, I just found your reasoning incorrect in asking for "ways it'll help" as if that concrete answer can be given easily without deep expertise. Or even as if that can be said concretely. It's missing the way the dialectical movement from quantity to quality works. I wouldn't be surprised if, in a hundred years, fundamental research into the particles instead finds a contradiction in the way we understand them which can be exploited for energy. We have many precedents for that at every major "level" above that.
Earlier versions of this same science helped us understand the theory behind nuclear power, then eventually engineer nuclear reactors. Neither of us know enough about physics to do much beyond extending that analogy into the future.
we accomplished all of that with the theoreticals, ie, without any of the physical proofs that the colliders provide (and havent provided in some cases)
also, there is criticism from actual physicists over these colliders as well and no not just that wierd lady with the accent who sucks
i find it strange for people to be like "oh you cant know what good it'll do for us in the future but i cant explain becuase none of us know enough about it" and dismiss me because im doubtful of its benefit because sometimes science just doesnt pan out, like sometimes theories are wrong and we could actually just be wasting a shit ton of money and resources to try and prove theories that are bunk
think of my point of view: we spend money on a collider to find a particle we already strongly suspect exists. cant find it. we spend money on a larger one. cant find it. spend money on a larger one, cool we found it! we confirmed what we already knew but it didnt answer a question we had. there must be something else. return to step one. so, maybe eventually we find what we are looking for. or maybe we dont. or maybe we do but realize it is not possible to interact with the thing in any ways that is useful outside of some obscure physics maths. but how many colliders do we build until enough is enough? we may very well be on a wild goose chase. what im saying is it is also possible that this stuff has as much scientific value to our real lives as elon launching a car into orbit
...No. There were plenty of tests, for example the atomic pile built at the University of Chicago. They certainly didn't just do a bunch of math and then build an industrial nuclear power plant on the first go.
there is criticism from actual physicists over these colliders
I don't think you're making the same criticisms they are (I last read some of those criticisms a while ago, though).
I'm not saying a particle accelerator was used to test the theoretical underpinnings of nuclear power. I'm saying testing was done, that is, they did not "accomplish[] all of that with the theoreticals." They just used earlier tools.
To test modern physics, many (not all) physicists say the tool they need is an accelerator.
As someone with a science background I think that this is exactly the type of project that humanity should engage in. Major public works like housing, healthcare, and food for all are critical to the body of a socialist future, but these big ambitious scientific endeavors are critical to the soul of a socialist future.
But, as someone with a making jokes background, this post is funny as shit and an A++ meme.
Where are the raw materials (including energy!) for this project coming from? Are the miners in the global south or the indigenous peoples pushed off their lands not harmed by the constantly increasing demand for materials academics present? Will these people see any benefit, in their or their childrens' lifetimes? Do the bourgeois, the mining and metalworking companies and all their friends, not make massive amounts of money selling these materials? Are the carbon emissions and environmental destruction not worth preventing?
The people will die mining the materials, the materials will be sold for pennies to the west, and the west will create next generation bombs to kill the miners’ children. And you will pay for it. I fucking love science!!
yeah biden is conjuring 5x this amount from the ether for some emergency bombs spending request. build ten of these things I don't give a fuck. this has nothing to do with people being unhoused and us squandering limited resources on I Fucking Love Science bait, those people being unhoused is a policy decision and we shouldn't wrangle over scraps for good things. honestly even if the particle collider finds nothing at least we will have paid for thousands of brilliant young people to do what they love for $30k/year for a decade, and that's what civilization is all about baby
To be fair to the scientific community, one more collider is probably more valuable to society than the equivalent cost of bombs and military equipment
Also, we did find the higgs-boson.
Yeah, people really focus on the fact that we don't evidence for very exotic theories and completely ignore the LHC finally got experimental confirmation of the particle that gives mass to other particles within the standard model. (I guess Higgs mechanism technically wasn't part of the standard model prior to experimental confirmation but styll)
disproving things is much more fundamental to the scientific process than actually confirming things. Confirming things is a bizarre byproduct, a happy accident. We must foster a culture that celebrates a killed hypothesis more than a confirmed one.
Something was disproven here, the null hypothesis of "the standard model without the higgs mechanism is sufficient to explain all known physical phenomena".
the improvement to my life since this discovery is unquantifiable
Oh no, not fundamental science that cannot immediately be capitalised on!
Seriously, why do substantial parts of this forum immediately turn anprim the moment fundamental physics research is concerned?
The scientists should just focus on hard science like media analysis video essays on Rick and Morty
smol brain no understand make angry
I don't think it's wrong to see poverty and equality as a priority over that, if I'm honest. It shouldn't be that surprising that people have an issue with billions of dollars being spent on things not currently improving lives when there are people living like hell.
But that’s entirely a problem of distribution of goods stemming from the predominant mode of economic organisation. Not building a larger particle collider would solve exactly zero problems which stem from capitalist distribution of goods and resulting artificial scarcity.
Sure. But that doesn't change people being upset that this is prioritised over living standards and lifestyles. People want that solved first and that's a perfectly ok emotion to be having that shouldn't be chastised.
The thing to push is that with capitalism is that they would rather fund this than feed and house people, because not feeding people is the point, by design. Even if this is unprofitable, it's still a thing they'd prefer to spend on than feed or house people.
Is there a world in which clearing land of animals, people, etc to make room for mines, extracting tons of ore from the ground, shipping(very harmful in and of itself in this society) it to a second place (cleared, etc) to be forged (at high temperatures requiring some energy source shipped from a third place (cleared etc)) and then shipping it to a fourth place (cleared, etc) to be built into a giant energy-consumer for perpetuity won't be harmful?
In a leftist utopia we wouldn't prioritize either because we'd do both. In a transitory state we could do plenty of both (see China), and the cost of this project is not large relative to national projects like housing, education (which this is part of anyway), or healthcare for all. In our current capitalist hellscape shutting this type of research down would reduce no poverty and win no allies.
We're always going to allocate resources to projects that do not address the most basic of needs. Criticism of that comes from a much better place than reactionaries yelling "you can't complain about being poor unless you live like a monk," but you can make all the same arguments against it.
because its hard to see any value in fundamental physics research when we can't even figure out how to live on this planet in a sustainable way that doesn't involve killing hundreds of millions of people and destroying vast parts of its ecosystem and exterminating half+ of all species on earth?
The scientests doing this research have been screaming at the top of their lungs how we could live sustainably for 6 decades.
"Scientific research is a waste because capitalism exists" is up there with "why should I have to use paper straws when billionaires have private planes" level take
For real lol, just wild behavior to be honest
if we can manage that, though, it would be kinda useful to already have a head-start on the particle colliding. More practically, the absolute peak of money for the sciences is a drop in the bucket compared to heavy industry, which is were most of the sustainability work needs to be done.
This is literally chuds argument for defunding nasa.
"I dont understand it so it's worthless to me"
the difference is with nasa we can name dozens of advancements that help people off the top of our heads but i cant even get someone to name something theoretical that might help the common man from the confirmation of the higgs-boson
so, maybe help out with that, what theoretically can we hope that we might improve our lives through confirming that particle
additionally chuds want to defund nasa to fund the military and prisons whereas id use the money from that particle thing to house homeless or invest in indigenous communities
so in short suck it nerd because it is in fact worthless to me, personally
Although I'm highly sympathetic to this argument until we have much better material conditions in socialism, I think your argument misses a significant dialectical process which must be taken into account and a reason that fundamental research is still necessary and good most of the time. Namely, the quantity -> quality relation. Fundamental research seems to have little effect until it's quantity reaches a threshold where it becomes obvious how it can be used and what sort of benefits there will be in using it, whereupon the quality of that research shifts to no longer being called "fundamental research" and becomes now its own field of research or applied research. Finding where these will appear is a difficult, though hopefully possible, endeavor.
If you argument is that fundamental research in particles will never result in that shift, I'm excited to hear how you reasoned that no contradiction/drive in the dialectics of nature found by colliders will be useful to our material conditions. I suspect you may be right but don't think I'm one who could possibly credibly say so, and therefore don't claim that it's useless.
If your argument is that fundamental research is too far away from results to make such decisions, i would really like to hear how we measure and understand this, because it feels like you know more about the threshold than me.
If your argument is that we should not focus on that when problems exist now: this is true, but can we possibly even call this focus? The money is miniscule in relation to the huge sums elsewhere and your focus on this is the real problem. You're then not necessarily wrong, but you're not fighting the most important fights.
The study of molecules was fruitful once chemical relations started being understood and used and resulted in some people "wasting time" on studying atoms. Those theories were useless except to probe what chemicists were doing already. Until the understanding reached a point that its exploitation became possible. Then the researchers were doing a science to utilize the energy of those atoms beyond the point where chemistry could apply as a framework. When this will occur again I don't dare claim.
Removed by mod
I'm not the original person you responded to, I just found your reasoning incorrect in asking for "ways it'll help" as if that concrete answer can be given easily without deep expertise. Or even as if that can be said concretely. It's missing the way the dialectical movement from quantity to quality works. I wouldn't be surprised if, in a hundred years, fundamental research into the particles instead finds a contradiction in the way we understand them which can be exploited for energy. We have many precedents for that at every major "level" above that.
This is the type of research that can advance more immediate research into non-fossil fuel energy.
specifically, how?
Earlier versions of this same science helped us understand the theory behind nuclear power, then eventually engineer nuclear reactors. Neither of us know enough about physics to do much beyond extending that analogy into the future.
we accomplished all of that with the theoreticals, ie, without any of the physical proofs that the colliders provide (and havent provided in some cases)
also, there is criticism from actual physicists over these colliders as well and no not just that wierd lady with the accent who sucks
i find it strange for people to be like "oh you cant know what good it'll do for us in the future but i cant explain becuase none of us know enough about it" and dismiss me because im doubtful of its benefit because sometimes science just doesnt pan out, like sometimes theories are wrong and we could actually just be wasting a shit ton of money and resources to try and prove theories that are bunk
think of my point of view: we spend money on a collider to find a particle we already strongly suspect exists. cant find it. we spend money on a larger one. cant find it. spend money on a larger one, cool we found it! we confirmed what we already knew but it didnt answer a question we had. there must be something else. return to step one. so, maybe eventually we find what we are looking for. or maybe we dont. or maybe we do but realize it is not possible to interact with the thing in any ways that is useful outside of some obscure physics maths. but how many colliders do we build until enough is enough? we may very well be on a wild goose chase. what im saying is it is also possible that this stuff has as much scientific value to our real lives as elon launching a car into orbit
...No. There were plenty of tests, for example the atomic pile built at the University of Chicago. They certainly didn't just do a bunch of math and then build an industrial nuclear power plant on the first go.
I don't think you're making the same criticisms they are (I last read some of those criticisms a while ago, though).
they literally did do that
the first particle accelerator was built like over a decade later
I'm not saying a particle accelerator was used to test the theoretical underpinnings of nuclear power. I'm saying testing was done, that is, they did not "accomplish[] all of that with the theoreticals." They just used earlier tools.
To test modern physics, many (not all) physicists say the tool they need is an accelerator.
Have we? Have you seen one? I don't know who these higgs and boson characters are but I find this "particle" of theirs extremely sus
These particles are... Among us
I was going tonsay are we arguing this is a bad thing?
This seems like a better use of money than 95% of America's budget.
We're not actually against scientific research are we?
As someone with a science background I think that this is exactly the type of project that humanity should engage in. Major public works like housing, healthcare, and food for all are critical to the body of a socialist future, but these big ambitious scientific endeavors are critical to the soul of a socialist future.
But, as someone with a making jokes background, this post is funny as shit and an A++ meme.
If it were up to me hard sciences could only get funding if soft sciences thought they deserved it. I want physicists to have to woo anthropologists.
anthropologists 🤢🤮
fuck you
Lol k
why?
Where are the raw materials (including energy!) for this project coming from? Are the miners in the global south or the indigenous peoples pushed off their lands not harmed by the constantly increasing demand for materials academics present? Will these people see any benefit, in their or their childrens' lifetimes? Do the bourgeois, the mining and metalworking companies and all their friends, not make massive amounts of money selling these materials? Are the carbon emissions and environmental destruction not worth preventing?
The people will die mining the materials, the materials will be sold for pennies to the west, and the west will create next generation bombs to kill the miners’ children. And you will pay for it. I fucking love science!!
yeah biden is conjuring 5x this amount from the ether for some emergency bombs spending request. build ten of these things I don't give a fuck. this has nothing to do with people being unhoused and us squandering limited resources on I Fucking Love Science bait, those people being unhoused is a policy decision and we shouldn't wrangle over scraps for good things. honestly even if the particle collider finds nothing at least we will have paid for thousands of brilliant young people to do what they love for $30k/year for a decade, and that's what civilization is all about baby
Really sums it up