AI have no rights. Your AI creations are right-less. They belong in the public domain. If not, they are properties of the peoples whose art you stole to make the AI.
AI have no rights. Your AI creations are right-less. They belong in the public domain. If not, they are properties of the peoples whose art you stole to make the AI.
You have a logical error there.
"there are people who's legs work that can't run for shit. that means that being paralysed from the waist down doesn't make you a bad runner"
Uh, aphantasia has precisely nothing to do with artistic ability. I only know a couple off the top of my head, but Ed Catmull founded Pixar and contributed greatly to computer graphics, and Glen Keane was an animator at Disney for decades, worked on all the big films. Both are aphantasic.
He Co founded Pixar and made programs to make videos. If he were born in the 80s he'd have founded an AI company.
Way to ignore a significant part of my neurodiversity and make some "pull yourself up by the boot straps" ablist bull shit about a few "great men" who overcame the barriers to entry and achieved things. "I didn't blame anyone for the loss of my legs, some [redacted] in Korea took them from me but I went out and achieved anyway. I can't solve your problems, sir, only you can"
uhhh you're making the error
good visualization is (probably) necessary for good drawing
good legs are necessary for running
but your legs can be perfectly fine and you can still suck at running. In fact people who are much older and even disabled (with the use of prosthetics) can outrun you despite you having good legs
similarly, having great visualization skills doesn't make you good at drawing. Arguably they are necessary to draw well, but they are not sufficient
This is what you said:
Aphantasia is not sucking at drawing, it's sucking at visualizing. Which arguably will probably also make you suck at drawing, but the converse (being bad at drawing means you're bad at visualizing) is not true at all
Also, like, visualization is helpful for drawing but it's not necessary because, among g other things, an intellectual understanding of how to draw figures (etc.) goes a long way, and so does just sketching things out so you can have a visual reference in place of the one your mind might produce if you could visualize
yea, also drawing from visualization feels like it has a coordination aspect that some people are bad at
I'm good at visualizing, but to draw while visualizing is like doing two things at once for me, it's similar to playing the piano (which I'm kinda bad at)
drawing just doesn't feel like it relies THAT much on visualization ability, which is why I tempered the (probably) in my original comment
If you cant visualize them "understanding how to draw figures" is called making stick people. Knowing that people have libs and joints doesn't go very far.
"just sketching things out " doesn't work when you don't have muscle memory in your hands. Dysgraphia means that every finger movement must be coordinated from scratch. I literally cannot write my name the same way twice if I have 50 tries.
This is blatant misinformation. Inability to visualize does not mean inability to understand geometry. A huge amount of figure drawing is just understanding the geometric relations between different parts, or at least using geometry to draw the scaffolding for making a coherent anatomy. Being able to visualize things does not at all correspond to putting it on a page, as literally anyone who can visualize things will readily tell you.
Which is thicker, a torso or an arm? Which is longer? When you stand straight, are your hamstrings and quadriceps oriented on the left and right of your legs, or the back and front? Is you calf thicker at the top or bottom? If you put your palms down on the ground in front of you, do your thumbs point towards or away from each other? In degrees, about how far can you turn your head?
Someone who can visualize but has not internalized the answers to these questions already would need to look at themselves, maybe even try out the pose, to answer (and look up the muscle groups). That's just the same as you, and once they have the answer, it is still just words, something that you can contain in your head just as clearly as them. They can use those words to produce images in their heads when they want to, but that circles around to sketching. If you know the answer to questions like this -- and internalizing those answers, those mere "words," is a significant element of study for beginning art students -- you can draw figures that are significantly more accurate than stick figures. It'll look like garbage at first -- in part because you won't know which questions to ask -- but that's what it means to be a beginner in any field, drawing included.
The sketch I mentioned is a reference sketch so you have an image in front of you that conveys the spatial relationships (i.e. the composition) you are going for. It's not a matter of making an identical drawing twice, because if all you wanted to draw was something identical to the sketch, you could just use the sketch.
There is certainly the matter of certain elements of technique being much harder with that condition, but it really has no bearing on the validity of sketching unless you are in desperate need to make the finished product as quickly as possible (because it does make everything slower, certainly). Even then, you should probably still sketch because you won't get to the end faster by fucking it up.
I'm sure you would tell me that your handwriting is terrible and irregular and I'm genuinely sorry you need to deal with that, but it's not just as bad as when you were six years old, right? And why is that when you lack muscle memory? I'm sure you can tell me quite a lot, but I am confident in saying that a major factor must have been getting a better understanding of the characters you are trying to write and what it is like to write them. There are things automatic fine motor skills would elide that the typical person relies on and you can't, but there is still surely a great deal you have learned (and a great deal you hypothetically could still learn) to improve your handwriting, even if it would remain irregular and you would write more slowly and with greater strain and so on.
something about... trusting marginalized peoples experiences? I am neurodivergent. It has been a significant barrier for me especially in areas of self expression and most notably visual art. You are telling me my life experience is dog shit and I should just ask NT people.
You have no concept of my situation and refuse to take me at my word. I hate brining up my neurodiversity because it is so poorly understood. You are proving to me that while this site is great for being inclusive for trans people there are significant black holes where ND people are concerned. I don't like to view myself as a marginalized person because I am a white cis male who speaks English but you are really making me feel marginalized. Thanks for that.
https://juliekitzes.com/painting-with-a-blind-minds-eye
https://theconversation.com/the-art-of-aphantasia-how-mind-blind-artists-create-without-being-able-to-visualise-162566
I do trust their testimony, and when the testimony conflicts, matters like what more of them say and what actually makes sense become a factor again. I've read several testimonies from artists on this subject and I welcome you to produce a more concrete contradiction, but not being able to visualize does not actually mean that it's impossible to draw more than a stick figure.
You might like this one
A black man was president so racism is obviously over right?
That is a nonsense comparison on several levels and I think you know that. Either something is possible or it isn't, and if it is possible in some cases but not in others, there needs to be one or more variables that cause that to be the case. Your analysis, as presented, was clearly incomplete because countless people with aphantasia provide contrary testimony.
That's why I suggested that you might be misunderstanding what it's like for people who are -- as far as this topic is concerned -- NT. Art is hard and it requires an immense amount of knowledge and practice, and many (for this purpose) NT people live their lives bitterly thinking "I wish that I could put on the page what I see in my head, but I lack the talent to do so". Generally speaking, they are wrong, they just haven't put in the work like the artists have -- including the much greater work disabled artists have -- but it goes some way to demonstrate that even for the able it is a long and difficult and discouraging process to make things that you can imagine other people finding presentable, though you may never even if you are quite good. You spoke a few comments ago as though mental images are themselves a superpower that elide the need to actually learn how to draw when it's genuinely nothing more than an ability to generate mental rough sketches at will that are significantly less stable and consistent (and therefore less useful) than an actual sketch.
Your stick figure claim is false, that is all.
fwiw I agree with you but just not on the idea that aphantasia itself necessitates being bad at drawing
I think it could hurt with drawing (for some people), for others it might actually help them gain the motivation to draw (if you can picture any scenario in your head you can easily end up having much less motivation to put that on a page, trust me).
There are probably other mental traits that are way more important to drawing than aphantasia though
the dysgraphia i don't know much about, but drawing figures is definitely a totally different hand movement from writing your name. I have great handwriting but I suck at drawing. Though dysgraphia probably does affect drawing too, and there are definitely multiple types of it which whose essences can't really be captured or described properly
you also could have a ton of other traits that simply aren't categorized properly under these limited names, so I believe you
Thanks for saying that.
Dysgraphia is the basically the bane of my existence. In my case it is caused by a lack of muscle memory in my hands. So any hand movement has to be specifically coordinated from scratch. So when I write a letter "A" my brain has to say to my hand "up and down and cross." Where most people write entire sentences like they are walking down the road for me its like walking across a field of sharp stones barefoot. Every single step must be carefully planned.
Aphantasia is a barrier to creating visual art. Your assertion is that because people without that same barrier aren't naturally successful that it isn't a barrier.
Okay, it probably is a barrier, circumstantially, depending on the individual
but your claim was "I can describe a picture but I could never draw it"
I took this to mean that you can actually also visualize that picture, which is the reason you could "describe" it. I don't know if that's what you meant, I guess not, and I interpreted it wrong, but the definition of aphantasia is about visualization