OK not the right word for it. We don't need to defend every thing they do. Especially not in a socialist space where I should hope we can critique China in good faith, and without calling for regime change as the only solution.
Do you understand why a vegan or an activist for animal rights might find this development in factory farming disturbing and upsetting? How the fuck is "well people gotta eat" a justification for anything? "People gotta eat" does not mean "people gotta eat more pork at the lowest price point possible." That's the heart of my objection. And where the hell did I say that a country is or should be vegan?
Especially because if this is justified with "people need to eat" and the need for food sovereignty then raising animals is the worst way to go about it, since 1) it's inefficient as fuck and 2) the food used to feed the livestock almost certainly will come from Brazil which is a country that China should not rely on too much and it defeats the purpose of having food sovereignty as you still need to feed livestock.
Can you do me a favor and go back to re-read this whole comment chain? Cause your replies are getting increasingly nonsensical.
Yeah, no shit we're making a moral argument against high intensity factory farming. Pointing it out is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is, and is honestly super close to "no politics in muh vidya" levels of liberalism. Food is political, meat is very political, and it's production is political. And politics is all about ethics (unless you're a ghoul)
Btw, the OP who brought up defending China was me. In particular, my point was that "people gotta eat" is a lazy attempt to wave away the political and moral implications of this new factory farming practice. Do you have any cogent points to make on this topic instead of telling me that my points don't matter?
never told you your points dont matter. im telling you that your reasoning is incoherent. discussing the ethics of industrial husbandry has nothing to do with a discussion on whether to defend china or not. stop getting so fucking riled up
Ed. the people here claiming that the existence of chinese industrial husbandry is a non-topic isnt using up a quota for the limits of defending china
discussing the ethics of industrial husbandry has nothing to do with a discussion on whether to defend china or not.
Defend China from what? Cause I'm fairly certain the topic of discussion is new practices in animal husbandry. You'd think the ethics of it would be very much on topic.
But the entire world's population is not going to magically go vegan overnight. In the same way that the entire world's population isn't going to magically turn communist overnight.
I'm just saying that there will be no animal liberation (literally impossible under capitalism) before human liberation, so we should focus on the latter.
I don't disagree. But I do think there's a lot of misconceptions out there by omnis that as a planet, we "need" meat and that there isn't enough farmland to grow enough plants to feed everyone; when the reality is that an entire planet of vegans would actually help sustain things better than having meat.
I mean I believed this until less than a year ago.
ideal thing is just having tech that feeds cells directly and makes it reproduce. becomes way more space efficient to have a ton of vats for it. and we're already nearing industrial production of that scale. its not unlikely that by 2030-2040 that you can get vegan vat grown meat at roughly the same cost as normal meat. theyll likely be making salmon, tuna, and ground chicken first. and itll likely be more efficient acreage wise than farming
Why is it "ideal" to go out of our way to pioneer entirely new kinds of technology to accomplish something we can already accomplish by just farming plants?
lmao, youre one of those whackjobs. its already on the cusp, if youre able to achieve global veganism before this tech takes over the meat industry ill applaud you. frankly? global veganism isnt going to happen without this tech, no matter how much you want to fairy tale it into existence. you cant just muh individualism people into veganism. and no redneck in the south is gonna sign up for a vegan revolutionary army. theyll laugh at you. and that includes the socialist rednecks. what are the material conditions necessary for creating a vegan revolutionary army anyways? what if you enter a long march scenario, where youre trekking through treacherous terrain and have to scavenge off the land? no eating deer? let the entire army die?
They think cruelty is the "natural" and "correct" way of going about life. They won't change because they don't think what they're doing is wrong in any way. It's like thinking that Biden libs will suddenly go out of their way to implement communism. It's not their goal. Carnists are not trying to phase out the murder of animals, because they love it and think it's correct.
it’s wrong to think most people won’t choose the less violent option if it’s given to them
No, you are the one who is wrong in assuming that a significant chunk of carnists will go out of their way to do less violence. They don't see what they support as violence. They would see lab grown meat as a weird novelty that will probably give them supercancer or (worse) breasts and avoid it at all costs.
The average meat eater (aka 90%+ of the world's population) give zero fucks where their meat comes from. If cloned chicken and regular chicken look identical sitting next to each other in the grocery store they're not going to give a fuck if the latter quietly disappears in favor of the former.
The rolling-coal eat-7-steaks-a-day-to-own-the-libs dipshits are not the average person.
also, if we inherently love cruelty for eating meat, why will we be vegan? shut up then. im gonna go bathe in pig blood right now, and have an orgy covered in cow intestines. because i'm cruel.
Because we want to successfully feed everyone a nutritious meal? Also, I don't want to be a pale, barely functional skeleton. Consuming less meat, sure. But also remember that not every country is the US where meat consumption is as idiotic as every other form of consumption there. Meat consumption in China is like less than half of what it is in the states.
i eat like a normal czech person, we eat like, potatoes and chicken and lots of fuckin berries. like a bowl of berries a day, its habitual to have a ton of berry bushes in your back yard. i also have medical issues that make a lot of non-fruit plants inedible for me. restricting my diet further is dangerous on many levels. if this tech figures out chicken cell reproduction (or any meat really) and sells it at the same price as other meats, i'd be functionally a vegan. and a lot of countries would be like that too. most places eat chicken in high quantities. solve that one meat and so much of the meat industry collapses.
And you'd rather rely on fantasy technology that we will hypothetically have in the future than simple agriculture that we've had for thousands of years? That's idealism, it's silly. Stop being silly.
fantasy? are you living under a rock? companies are already selling this to restaurants. the problem right now is one of scale. you can buy these vegan meat dishes for like 25 bucks for a small portion. another issue is that the methods arent approved by the USDA yet, but in hong kong and singapore its already approved and available in many restaurants.
1.4 billion people need to eat.
More at 11.
Bad take. Solidarity with China, but we don't need praise every fucking thing they do. Especially when it's objectively shitty like in this case.
Did I praise China for this?
OK not the right word for it. We don't need to defend every thing they do. Especially not in a socialist space where I should hope we can critique China in good faith, and without calling for regime change as the only solution.
its not that, this "point" is just completely meaningless. a country isnt vegan
Do you understand why a vegan or an activist for animal rights might find this development in factory farming disturbing and upsetting? How the fuck is "well people gotta eat" a justification for anything? "People gotta eat" does not mean "people gotta eat more pork at the lowest price point possible." That's the heart of my objection. And where the hell did I say that a country is or should be vegan?
Especially because if this is justified with "people need to eat" and the need for food sovereignty then raising animals is the worst way to go about it, since 1) it's inefficient as fuck and 2) the food used to feed the livestock almost certainly will come from Brazil which is a country that China should not rely on too much and it defeats the purpose of having food sovereignty as you still need to feed livestock.
but muh bacoon
op talked about defending china. thats not what this is, its just you guys complaining about the state of human ethics. thats my point again
Can you do me a favor and go back to re-read this whole comment chain? Cause your replies are getting increasingly nonsensical.
Yeah, no shit we're making a moral argument against high intensity factory farming. Pointing it out is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is, and is honestly super close to "no politics in muh vidya" levels of liberalism. Food is political, meat is very political, and it's production is political. And politics is all about ethics (unless you're a ghoul)
Btw, the OP who brought up defending China was me. In particular, my point was that "people gotta eat" is a lazy attempt to wave away the political and moral implications of this new factory farming practice. Do you have any cogent points to make on this topic instead of telling me that my points don't matter?
never told you your points dont matter. im telling you that your reasoning is incoherent. discussing the ethics of industrial husbandry has nothing to do with a discussion on whether to defend china or not. stop getting so fucking riled up
Ed. the people here claiming that the existence of chinese industrial husbandry is a non-topic isnt using up a quota for the limits of defending china
Defend China from what? Cause I'm fairly certain the topic of discussion is new practices in animal husbandry. You'd think the ethics of it would be very much on topic.
Why is it shitty?
deleted by creator
Most Chinese are not vegan.
https://www.abolitionistapproach.com/faqs/
I doubt these pigs are entirely fed waste products.
All the farmland growing feed would support more people if it were growing something edible.
In a perfect world there would be no industrial farms. I think we all agree on that. And in a perfect world all of us might be vegan.
But we don't live in a perfect world, and people need to eat.
Meat is less efficient.
Each pig this facility processes represents an acre of land that could feed 5 people only feeding 2.
That's all true.
But the entire world's population is not going to magically go vegan overnight. In the same way that the entire world's population isn't going to magically turn communist overnight.
I'm just saying that there will be no animal liberation (literally impossible under capitalism) before human liberation, so we should focus on the latter.
I don't disagree. But I do think there's a lot of misconceptions out there by omnis that as a planet, we "need" meat and that there isn't enough farmland to grow enough plants to feed everyone; when the reality is that an entire planet of vegans would actually help sustain things better than having meat.
I mean I believed this until less than a year ago.
ideal thing is just having tech that feeds cells directly and makes it reproduce. becomes way more space efficient to have a ton of vats for it. and we're already nearing industrial production of that scale. its not unlikely that by 2030-2040 that you can get vegan vat grown meat at roughly the same cost as normal meat. theyll likely be making salmon, tuna, and ground chicken first. and itll likely be more efficient acreage wise than farming
Why is it "ideal" to go out of our way to pioneer entirely new kinds of technology to accomplish something we can already accomplish by just farming plants?
lmao, youre one of those whackjobs. its already on the cusp, if youre able to achieve global veganism before this tech takes over the meat industry ill applaud you. frankly? global veganism isnt going to happen without this tech, no matter how much you want to fairy tale it into existence. you cant just muh individualism people into veganism. and no redneck in the south is gonna sign up for a vegan revolutionary army. theyll laugh at you. and that includes the socialist rednecks. what are the material conditions necessary for creating a vegan revolutionary army anyways? what if you enter a long march scenario, where youre trekking through treacherous terrain and have to scavenge off the land? no eating deer? let the entire army die?
This is complete nonsense, that's never going to happen. Carnists love cruelty and will never stop.
deleted by creator
They think cruelty is the "natural" and "correct" way of going about life. They won't change because they don't think what they're doing is wrong in any way. It's like thinking that Biden libs will suddenly go out of their way to implement communism. It's not their goal. Carnists are not trying to phase out the murder of animals, because they love it and think it's correct.
deleted by creator
No, you are the one who is wrong in assuming that a significant chunk of carnists will go out of their way to do less violence. They don't see what they support as violence. They would see lab grown meat as a weird novelty that will probably give them supercancer or (worse) breasts and avoid it at all costs.
deleted by creator
lmao carnists are already afraid of tofu, you think they're going to be less afraid of eating weird clone meat?
it's ridiculous to even consider dude
deleted by creator
The average meat eater (aka 90%+ of the world's population) give zero fucks where their meat comes from. If cloned chicken and regular chicken look identical sitting next to each other in the grocery store they're not going to give a fuck if the latter quietly disappears in favor of the former.
The rolling-coal eat-7-steaks-a-day-to-own-the-libs dipshits are not the average person.
whackjob. you are a whackjob. go touch grass.
also, if we inherently love cruelty for eating meat, why will we be vegan? shut up then. im gonna go bathe in pig blood right now, and have an orgy covered in cow intestines. because i'm cruel.
Because we want to successfully feed everyone a nutritious meal? Also, I don't want to be a pale, barely functional skeleton. Consuming less meat, sure. But also remember that not every country is the US where meat consumption is as idiotic as every other form of consumption there. Meat consumption in China is like less than half of what it is in the states.
i eat like a normal czech person, we eat like, potatoes and chicken and lots of fuckin berries. like a bowl of berries a day, its habitual to have a ton of berry bushes in your back yard. i also have medical issues that make a lot of non-fruit plants inedible for me. restricting my diet further is dangerous on many levels. if this tech figures out chicken cell reproduction (or any meat really) and sells it at the same price as other meats, i'd be functionally a vegan. and a lot of countries would be like that too. most places eat chicken in high quantities. solve that one meat and so much of the meat industry collapses.
Why do you falsely believe you can't do that with plants?
the key words here are 'successfully' and 'everyone'.
And you'd rather rely on fantasy technology that we will hypothetically have in the future than simple agriculture that we've had for thousands of years? That's idealism, it's silly. Stop being silly.
Nowhere did I claim such a thing.
fantasy? are you living under a rock? companies are already selling this to restaurants. the problem right now is one of scale. you can buy these vegan meat dishes for like 25 bucks for a small portion. another issue is that the methods arent approved by the USDA yet, but in hong kong and singapore its already approved and available in many restaurants.
https://youtu.be/1OO5YpCevfY
Hence why it's fantasy.
lol