Ollie Vargas on Twitter
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1. Pedro Castillo appoints a Marxist intellectual as Foreign Minister2. The military (navy) forces the govt to remove him, they install a new guy 3. New guy signs a deal with USAID Voters' wishes annulled ☑️ pic.twitter.com/StFqGfBsjz— Ollie Vargas (@OVargas52) September 4, 2021

I don't like this. I hope Castillo and Peru Libre can learn from the examples of Venezuela and Bolivia and build power outside the government.

  • Vncredleader
    ·
    3 years ago

    The state is an instrument of class rule and doesn’t allow itself to be taken over by another class just because they asked nicely, filled out the proper paperwork, etc. Literally the only possible means of influencing it to exact concessions is through some form of struggle, which relies on the mobilization of the masses. I’m not talking about armed guerillas and I’m not even necessarily talking about protests (although Peru hasn’t exactly been shy about those recently!). And, again, it isn’t just about mass struggle, but also a million other variables (which I thought would be an obvious enough thing that I wouldn’t have to specify it).

    You keep complaining about how I mentioned things outside of the very narrow parameters you mean by mass mobilization and pressure, and then go on to pretty much just restate generic "mobilization" as a strategy. It doesn't matter if you personally don't want to think about Shining Path, that factor is unable to be removed from your narrow point about "the masses". Just restating the most milquetoast idea of "the masses do a thing" is not a theory of change for Peru, or even a strategy. It's like saying "we could have had Bernie create an american soviet union if we did politics" and then pushing back when people say that's less a suggestion and more of a notion.

    No one fucking disagreed with you on the idea that political parties need people to support those political parties. You just stated that, and then got mad when the context of Peru was brought up and the simplistic take got pushback. Like they have

    learn(ed) from the examples of Venezuela and Bolivia and (built) power outside the government. That's what the election was about. Suggesting they get support for their political party is just a weird suggestion after they won, and reacting to any disagreement as if people disagree with the idea of having a movement is silly. They have the power base, saying they need one is not a solution or suggestion for how to change the Peruvian army. Saying "exact concessions through some form of struggle" as if anyone disagreed with the idea of politics as struggle is absurd. They mobilized that's how they got a socialist in office, but because of the context of Peru, that mass mobilization hits a wall in terms of the matter of the military.

    That's why the narrow point is milquetoast and why I am not going to give suggestions about Peru that adhere to the point you want to make and nothing more. It is not "obvious enough" that you wouldn't have to specify literally the very aspect of Peruvian politics that your link is about; namely the military. So you want ideas about mass mobilization in relation to changing the military, without people bringing up the Peruvian military and how it would respond? because practically speaking that is what the result of saying "no Shining Path is irrelevant" means. If you want ideas about how Castillo can deal with the military dictating everything for him, then they are going to involve Castillo's powers as president and will inevitably involve consideration of why MAS -esq strategies are inapplicable. Don't make a broad statement about power in Peru and the military and then get annoyed that the complex factor of the peruvian military is used to disagree with the simplification.

    Again Castillo is in power, the Peruvian military more than any other in the Americas wont be moved by outside pressure or mobilization beyond that which got a socialist into office. The insurgency means that materially the mobilization has played its hand and the mechanism of change will be structural and inside the administration. it is simple as that, you are not wrong or bad for saying the masses matter, but in terms of the Peruvian military, Castillo doesn't need to "learn" that mobilization is important, the man knows all too well. It is up to neutralizing the army now, this specific issue requires a change to the military administratively not externally. @DragonNest_Aidit 's comment was entirely correct. In this case the army of the state has to be remade by the president, and he already has the mass movement needed to get to that point, it was the election. Now it is appointments and the powers of the president alone, anything else is a non-starter for Peru

    Pretentiously saying

    You could give me a dissertation on the influence of the Shining Path on Peruvian politics and it wouldn’t have any bearing on that very, very basic fact. A failed guerilla war doesn’t mean that it’s no longer necessary for a socialist administration to build power outside the bourgeois state.

    Doesn't make your point salient. The very very basic fact is not about the failure of Shining Path, its the fact that power outside the bourgeois state is not what will enable the ELECTED socialist president of Peru to deal with the army. You think the insurgency is being mentioned as a way of saying guerilla war won't work, no you misunderstand my point. The insurgency provides the entire context of how the Peruvian military relates to the state and president. it is not about how Shining Path failed, but literally the nature of this military in this country. Suggesting building outside power structures is not a suggestion for THIS issue, and the pushback has nothing to do with the concept of dual power structures or mass mobilization. The context is not esoteric historical flexing, it is a matter of the behavior of the military. We are talking about Castillo, the elected president, and how he must deal with the army as president. Stop deciding that the material reality of those actors only exist in the context of "no mass mobilization dumb" and "guerilla war FTW". Context is not a reremovedtion of the very concept of everything you said.

    • EthicalHumanMeat [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      No one fucking disagreed with you on the idea that political parties need people to support those political parties. You just stated that, and then got mad when the context of Peru was brought up and the simplistic take got pushback.

      Man, you're just being pedantic.

      I wasn't pushing a fucking strategy, I was just saying that I hope they can replicate the successes of the only other two examples I'm aware of of successful socialist governments who came to power through semi-electoral means. Then you come in saying, "well ackshually they shouldn't be building power outside the government blah blah blah" and started rambling about the history of the Shining Path. And you literally said:

      I don’t think building power outside the government is the way to go here. Chavez got support outside the government yes, but also then purged the military and much of his non-governmental support early on was for him as part of the army.

      How was I supposed to interpret this? Because it looks to me like you're saying that the public cannot and should not have any role in the government accomplishing their goals, which is an absurd thing to say. And also that purging the military is an alternative strategy to building support outside the government, not a complementary one, despite acknowledging in the same sentence that Chavez did both of those things?

      I say something very simple and obvious not as a proposed strategy but as a way of expressing that I hope they can stay in power and be effective in the face of hostile forces and you say, "nuh uh", and then berate me for not providing a detailed history of Peruvian politics?

      the simplistic take got pushback

      "Damn, I hope they do socialism."

      "What a simplistic take, you fucking rube. Here's multiple paragraphs about how they can't just 'do socialism' because of the particular historical material conditions of Peru..."

      You completely inferred the "just"s that you claim I've been saying. Nothing I said was "just" about doing any particular thing and I was very explicit about that when you claimed it.

      because practically speaking that is what the result of saying “no Shining Path is irrelevant” means.

      This is the fourth time I've said that I never said that. It isn't relevant to what I said, because what I said was more or less, "I hope they win."

      But for some fucking reason you feel the need to dissect and argue against that like I was offering up a whole analysis.

      Just restating the most milquetoast idea of “the masses do a thing” is not a theory of change for Peru, or even a strategy.

      Yeah, no shit. I wasn't giving a theory of change or a strategy in the first place.

      "They should build a stronger power base to challenge the entrenched power structures of the state" isn't a political platform and isn't meant to be. I was sharing this news that I saw that looked significant, and made a general comment to the effect that I hope they can mobilize the masses, which, yes, regardless of the circumstances will always be necessary. It's not "milquetoast", it's an intentionally broad statement that I hope they can expand their political movement, which like every other socialist movement needs ground-level support.

      You're acting like I think "build a movement" is an analysis and condescending as if I think I'm giving Castillo advice.

      I mean where the fuck is this shit even coming from?

      Castillo doesn’t need to “learn” that mobilization is important, the man knows all too well.

      It’s like saying “we could have had Bernie create an american soviet union if we did politics” and then pushing back when people say that’s less a suggestion and more of a notion.

      Like Jesus christ, lay off. You're just looking for an argument for some fucking reason.

      • Vncredleader
        ·
        3 years ago

        Its really fucking funny that you push back at anyone disagreeing with your statement as if they are opposed to socialism. Your op was infantilizing, what's the point of saying "this elected socialist should consider making a movement?" that shit was weird. You think I started an argument by stating that the Peruvian military acts a certain way? You can't say you just wanted to open a dialogue and then also be upset that the necessary context was stated. YOU decided the insurgency was irrelevant to the point, you decided to be hostile over the fact that I brought up the specifics of Peru on this matter.

        “Damn, I hope they do socialism.” Yeah exactly, that sentiment is a weirdly patronizing thing to say about a socialist movement that just got its guy in office. They did the thing, they did the mass movement. You are acting offended because I objected to the attitude of this statement

        I hope Castillo and Peru Libre can learn from the examples of Venezuela and Bolivia and build power outside the government. I'm sorry but that's a reductive and kinda paternalistic thing to say about a movement that succeeded. And when anyone adds onto that, like you claim you want, you fucking call it a dissertation of Peruvian politics or irrelevant. You don't want a discussion, you said a simplistic and mildly patronizing (accidentally) thing and then got angry over the fact that I mentioned the conditions in Peru.

        Because it looks to me like you’re saying that the public cannot and should not have any role in the government accomplishing their goals, which is an absurd thing to say. And also that purging the military is an alternative strategy to building support outside the government, not a complementary one, despite acknowledging in the same sentence that Chavez did both of those things? Ok I have no fucking clue how you can accuse me of twisting things when you say shit like this.

        I don’t think building power outside the government is the way to go here. Chavez got support outside the government yes, but also then purged the military and much of his non-governmental support early on was for him as part of the army. Does not say "mass movements are bad and "the public cannot and should not have any role in the government accomplishing their goals". Yeah that would be an absurd thing to say, and evidentially you are high or something because that quote says nothing of the sort. You wanna talk specifically and ONLY about the options available for Castillo, ok then in that circumstance building power outside the government is not the way to SPECIFICALLY change the military. The needed support did its job, for this matter you have to deal with the current military and neutralize it.

        That is my point, its the point others have made as well; the problem is the Peruvian military and its power, curtailing that once a socialist is in power will require removing these fucking ghouls from their positions and putting trusted leftists in the military brass. Mass organizing cannot specifically appoint generals in Peru. I didn't fucking say "the public cannot and should not have any role in the government accomplishing their goals" I said the way to go on THIS MATTER is going to have to be using Castillo's powers as president.

        That is literally all I said. You simultaneously want to only talk about very specific parameters, and then suddenly claim that my response to those specific parameters is a freaking definitive statement on politics as a whole and not literally just appointments to the military. You want it both ways, but don't want anyone else to either be specific or general. Are we talking about appointments to the military or about literally all of Peruvian politics and the creation of socialism in Peru? Because I thought we were just talking about the generals.

        I know this is on the exact topic you want to talk about and not outside it.....so you will call it irrelevant. but here I am sorry for seeming rude, but your comment just seemed patronizing towards Peruvians and like a silly thing to point to on this specific matter. Here is the 14th duty of the Peruvian president according to article 118 of the 1993 constitution

        Preside over the National Defense System; and organize, distribute and arrange the employment of the Armed Forces and the National Police. And Article 172

        The President of the Republic grants the promotions of generals and admirals in the Armed Forces, as well as generals in the National Police upon recommendation from the relevant institution.

        Those are explicitly Castillo's powers, THAT is why I said the way to go is not external pressure, because Castillo has the power himself to remove these men. Now he has to be careful because if they say he is "politically motivated" in his appointments they will then probably kill him with US approval. But the means of addressing the specific issue you are talking about, and say you are exclusively talking about is in these two articles.

        Don't act like I am speaking about the concept of mass movements, either you are lying or seriously jumping the gun and calling the kettle black. Stop fucking acting like you are the victim and I am against people doing politics, just because I said your comment was simplistic and am concerned that the Peruvian military will massacre people. That is why I brought up Shining Path, THAT is why I said the presidential powers are the way to go. Because I am earnestly afraid of what the military will do to "power outside the government" because yes no shit popular movements are the entire soul of socialism, but we are not talking about the idea of popular movements or the soul of socialism. We are talking about the corrupt military brass of Peru, and they literally 20 years ago where massacring journalists and peasants for popular movements calling them "insurgents".

        My concern over that is not about you, or thinking you are a rube. I am just saying before anything else is tried, the presidential office making appointments is the way to go. This is not a matter of

        started rambling about the history of the Shining Path or berate me for not providing a detailed history of Peruvian politics? I seriously apologize if I came off that way, but no the nature of the Peruvian military and Shining Path are not rambles or detailed history of Peruvian politics; they are the fundamental basis of

        I don’t think building power outside the government is the way to go here. Chavez got support outside the government yes, but also then purged the military and much of his non-governmental support early on was for him as part of the army. You harp on that quote while separately complaining about the shit that explains what that quote means calling it irrelevant and acting like its just a dissertation on Peru. No that shit was not a ramble unrelated or disconnected to that exact quote, that WAS the point of the quote. You complained about my reasoning as irrelevant, and then act like my argument has no reasoning. No you just in the same breath shrugged off the reasoning.

        You cannot act like I am dismissing the power of the masses, because I am specifically concerned over the violence done upon them. Again, you might find it a ramble about Peruvian history, but no dammit the way the military dealt with "insurgents" is inseparable and paramount to any matter involving the popular movements in Peru. Its insulting and disgusting to pretend like I said the people have no role in their government and your reasoning for that is the fact that my primary hang-up is the legacy of Grupo Colina and the massacres in the 90s. You are saying I am against popular participation, because I am bringing up the violence the Peruvian military uses against the people. Stop thinking about owns or responses to your post, and consider the fact that what I am talking about is the actual massacring of Peruvians and how best to avoid that happening again. This is not about you, or anyone thinking you are stupid, I swear to you.

        Don't you dare conflate my fears over another Barrios Altos massacre with thinking the people have no role in socialism. Say whatever you want, but that's crossing a line. My bringing them up is not irrelevant to my response, it is the basis of it. And they are sure as fuck not "being pedantic"