This isn't entirely fair to the people pushing back, though I agree sometimes people choose the wrong arguments. There are better arguments that are commonly used, however: see explanations of why Zenz's work is lacking, "there is no refugee crisis", and "Muslim-majority countries do not support America in this" for three.
Also, the Zenz thing actually does convince people. The guy is fucking crazy, demonstrating that does make people more hesitant to trust his "research".
See I don’t find any of those arguments persuasive, and if someone is genuinely looking for rigorous critique they shouldn’t either.
The existence or non-existence of a refugee crisis is probably the strongest argument, but is easily challenged. “China’s control is just that powerful”, “The genocide is through authoritarian control and only limited state violence. So refugees aren’t necessarily present.”
As for the Muslim countries claim, there’s a lot of weird assumptions there. Primarily that state actors would give a shit about human rights abuses when it goes against their national interests to complain.
And finally, Zenz is a creep. Yeah some folks will find this persuasive, but it’s still a bad argument. A fallacy is a fallacy, if you’re talking to someone who cares about the weight of evidence they (and I) won’t give a shit about who he is unless you can demonstrate how his others beliefs affect how he interprets his research.
What weight of evidence? The studies use flawed methodology, the people involved have shown their bad faith. You can't prove a negative, all you can do is discredit the evidence. People are always going to have a rejoinder which amounts to "I just know in my heart that China is evil".
unless you can demonstrate how his others beliefs affect how he interprets his research.
He believes god sent him on a quest to destroy China, I'm pretty sure it affects how he interprets his research. He also works for the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, known CIA cutout IIRC.
Yeah, but the methodology isn't correct. For instance, there was a study that involved a lot of extrapolation from a small number of interviews, and people were regularly bringing that up as a criticism.
Also, regardless of what you think, Zenz being a nutcase does cast doubt on what he says and is a very convincing argument for many people.
Just to add: I know his methodology is flawed and the data is poor. Because I read his fucking papers. That is what allows me to talk intelligently about it, and then go on to explain that he is likely motivated by ideological reasons. This is far more effective.
“The methodology is flawed in these ways which invalidate the conclusions.”
Not ad hominem.
Ad hominem on the other hand:
It’s persuasive some of the time, but it leaves you with nothing if the source is anyone but Zenz. Also it’s still fallacious. I mean, I find Zenz fucking abhorrent and am highly confident that his wacko religious views motivate his work, but if I tried to argue that in any kind of intellectually serious sphere I’d be laughed out of the room, and rightly so.
but it leaves you with nothing if the source is anyone but Zenz
Yeah, this is the real problem with the Zenz stuff. It's not really an "intellectually serious" setting in, say, a Reddit thread, so it can convince people. But if it's not Zenz then it's useless - though it's Zenz a surprising amount of the time.
Just read the fucking papers. They’re not complicated, find the evidence backing up the claims they’re making and figure out how it poorly supports the claims made. Same thing with the organ harvesting stuff. When you actually read the original stuff you can readily take apart the arguments being used there.
You're right because most of the time these propagandists rely on their audience not doing the investigation. Personally, I find your prescribed method the most persuasive. I'll use this example link here.
What I admire about this specific example of your method is that it simultaneously establishes one's credibility (it makes people want to listen to you, want to come to your side) by demonstrating intellectual rigour and also puts the claimant on the defensive by asking them to justify every claim, big or small. I included the whole comment chain to show the claim being defeated (then deleted) and the comments of the lurkers praising it. This is the exact phenomenon we want to see replicated everywhere on whatever internet forum.
Having said that though, I think we should understand that it's not about what any individual here finds persuasive. If there's a method people find effective in their circles, I say go ahead.
This isn't entirely fair to the people pushing back, though I agree sometimes people choose the wrong arguments. There are better arguments that are commonly used, however: see explanations of why Zenz's work is lacking, "there is no refugee crisis", and "Muslim-majority countries do not support America in this" for three.
Also, the Zenz thing actually does convince people. The guy is fucking crazy, demonstrating that does make people more hesitant to trust his "research".
yeah especially since in articles he's usually just cited as "an expert" and that is enough to convince libs
See I don’t find any of those arguments persuasive, and if someone is genuinely looking for rigorous critique they shouldn’t either.
The existence or non-existence of a refugee crisis is probably the strongest argument, but is easily challenged. “China’s control is just that powerful”, “The genocide is through authoritarian control and only limited state violence. So refugees aren’t necessarily present.”
As for the Muslim countries claim, there’s a lot of weird assumptions there. Primarily that state actors would give a shit about human rights abuses when it goes against their national interests to complain.
And finally, Zenz is a creep. Yeah some folks will find this persuasive, but it’s still a bad argument. A fallacy is a fallacy, if you’re talking to someone who cares about the weight of evidence they (and I) won’t give a shit about who he is unless you can demonstrate how his others beliefs affect how he interprets his research.
What weight of evidence? The studies use flawed methodology, the people involved have shown their bad faith. You can't prove a negative, all you can do is discredit the evidence. People are always going to have a rejoinder which amounts to "I just know in my heart that China is evil".
He believes god sent him on a quest to destroy China, I'm pretty sure it affects how he interprets his research. He also works for the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, known CIA cutout IIRC.
He can believe all these things and still have a correct methodology with accurate data.
Yeah, but the methodology isn't correct. For instance, there was a study that involved a lot of extrapolation from a small number of interviews, and people were regularly bringing that up as a criticism.
Also, regardless of what you think, Zenz being a nutcase does cast doubt on what he says and is a very convincing argument for many people.
Just to add: I know his methodology is flawed and the data is poor. Because I read his fucking papers. That is what allows me to talk intelligently about it, and then go on to explain that he is likely motivated by ideological reasons. This is far more effective.
Yeah, you're right that that's a better approach in some contexts, especially (as you say) more serious ones.
See that’s a real argument though.
“The methodology is flawed in these ways which invalidate the conclusions.”
Not ad hominem.
Ad hominem on the other hand: It’s persuasive some of the time, but it leaves you with nothing if the source is anyone but Zenz. Also it’s still fallacious. I mean, I find Zenz fucking abhorrent and am highly confident that his wacko religious views motivate his work, but if I tried to argue that in any kind of intellectually serious sphere I’d be laughed out of the room, and rightly so.
Yeah, this is the real problem with the Zenz stuff. It's not really an "intellectually serious" setting in, say, a Reddit thread, so it can convince people. But if it's not Zenz then it's useless - though it's Zenz a surprising amount of the time.
Unless you can demonstrate how his work is flawed I don’t find it persuasive.
You're right because most of the time these propagandists rely on their audience not doing the investigation. Personally, I find your prescribed method the most persuasive. I'll use this example link here.
What I admire about this specific example of your method is that it simultaneously establishes one's credibility (it makes people want to listen to you, want to come to your side) by demonstrating intellectual rigour and also puts the claimant on the defensive by asking them to justify every claim, big or small. I included the whole comment chain to show the claim being defeated (then deleted) and the comments of the lurkers praising it. This is the exact phenomenon we want to see replicated everywhere on whatever internet forum.
Having said that though, I think we should understand that it's not about what any individual here finds persuasive. If there's a method people find effective in their circles, I say go ahead.