crossposter is mod of the sub and a "patriotic socialism" post is stickied
someone here on hexbear has explained the difference between global south national liberation movements against colonialism and imperial core patriotism but I don't even have the energy to look for it
Yeah, there are useful parallels in the difference between white pride movements vs other ethnic pride movements, "straight pride" vs gay/ trans pride, etc.
Pride/ nationalist movements of dominant groups basically just exist to revel in and reinforce that domination, pride & nationalist groups of marginalized groups tend to focus on keeping people from feeling horrible about themselves for belonging to marginalized groups, and to try to make them less socially and politically marginalized in general.
When your country has been occupied and your people have been oppressed by foreign powers for decades, it’s okay to be patriotic. When your country does the occupation and oppression, it’s not okay to be patriotic. Simple as can be
imperial core patriotism doesn't recognize any nation but itself, it is a foreover monster, a cancer that gobbles all it can until it is either consumed or consuming, this is why ussr good, even if it wasn't a national liberation it didn't use patriotism to elevate one above all in a nazi paradox (the paradox being that if the enemy is weak there is no need to rise above it, if it is strong there is no reason to elevate above it), it instead helped friendly nations grow and strengthen and nations become friendly, also why so many communists fell in 1990 though unfortunately
our preferred troll, read the comment again, it was not imperialist patriotism, I explained why, I am not going into philosophy and how the ussr deterritorialized patriotism
American chauvinism & xenophobia are not the same things as patriotic socialism & proletarian internationalism in America, which by themselves are not mutually exclusive
USSR never deterritorialized patriotism, it was always tied to the reality of the land & the people of the constituent republics & fraternal relations among socialist nations
again you didn't read the first comment, as it was exactly my point,
the patriotism in the ussr was as much tied to the outside friendly nations as it was to the republics, which were already a deterritorialization compared to bourgeois patriotism, and always subservient to the greater well being of the soviets
It was desperate measure of 30s though, to find common ground amidst class war in ussr before invasion. It should have been temporary deviation (to use, not to instill). Alas, patriotism got its wormhooks, and mutated over ussr decay period into nationalism. One shouldn’t mistake that for patriotism being desirable.
Genuinely where before 30s? Movies about great man to instill pride in past where done then, church was slowly let go.
It isn’t desirable, it’s sometimes necessary evil to forge bonds between classes, but they are rotten from within. As soon as you have more solidarity with petit bourgeois fuck than with worker, cause one is from the same nation and the latter isn’t, you’ve got a problem.
National xenophobic issues in ussr give fairly illustrative example, with slow displacement into Russian chauvinism.
Soviet patriotism & the "Soviet person" was simultaneously proletarian internationalist & proud of their heritage & national identity
Yes, love of one's country & people is "socialism" at its very heart. There is no "forging bonds between classes" as such, it's about promoting socially necessary relations between & among Soviet nations. Indigenization was part of this process, but so was the "New Soviet man", these process worked in tandem
Great-Russian chauvinism always existed in those areas, and only a "patriotic socialism" could address it
But new soviet man wasn’t rooted in nation crucially, while patriotism was. Just look into output of movies before war, with nevsky and grozny pics. It’s fairly obvious what they are doing and why: they are telling kulaks and assorted declassed elements - look, at least we are russians, we can kill any invasion.
Country is garbage heap invented whole cloth after feudalism has finished dividing finite land. What is one’s country if you are born in Lorraine?
People is one thing, you can like your place of growing up (as in location and people), people like remembering childhood. but being proud of kings who fucked over all your ancestry requires truly mesmerizing leap to be considered desirable.
Class solidarity could address it, with indifference to place of birth. But alas, the germany got fucked
Stalin referred to the Russian nation as the "elder brother" among the constituent republics. The New Soviet man was integral to forming the Soviet patriotism in both its many constituent national contexts & in the overall production of Soviet national identity
Marx was born in Trier which is in the "Sar-Lor-Lux" region, and is inherently a mishmash of Francophone & Germanic influences. But Marx was German
Patriotic socialism has nothing to do with being proud of kings
Yes, and I’m again telling you the reason why stalin did it: it was class glue to hold on till the war, or the vlasov affair prolly would have been much worse.
You don’t need patriotism, ffs, worker solidarity isn’t patriotism, and worker pride (so to say) isn’t patriotism.
The Soviet Union took shortcut and it backfired 50 years later when shortcut engineers were purged, and nomenklatura decided that all was fine, we should continue. considering the boomer state in eastern europe - it backfired everywhere
Because it’s very neat shortcut allowing to involve national and petit bourgeoisie in liberation struggle. But it’s that - shortcut to first stage of revolution.
Yes, and that turn includes leaving patriotism fester and morph beneath the surface.
Patriotic socialism was promoted through East Slav & Central Asian & Caucasus and Far East Areas
It wasn't socialist patriotism that began to fester, it was the idiocy of Great-Russians trying to fight against the Nazi-stoked chauvinism in the least effective ways throughout those areas
In each instance, it was the Soviet socialist patriotism at odds with this genocidal ethnocentrism in places like Crimea & Chechen areas & elsewhere
Yea, but it wasn’t patriotic, not at first. Patriotism is invention of nation states, lol, when did it appear you think? It has obvious trappings and goals, and I cannot conceive why it’s desirable state of affairs for socialist.
Obviously, when it was understood that germany isn’t coming to the fold (and ussr was doomed from then tbh), they’ve pivoted through stalin into in-one-country formula. But it is that - pivot and deviation dictated by the nature of struggle, class antagonism and foreign enemies. It isn’t in itself good or desirable, it’s something that was imposed upon fledging Soviet Union. And again, if you trace art and culture of ussr, which was fairly bound to party you can see it reorienting in 35-39 very rapidly into embracing not revolutionary struggles, but past great man of russia.
No, it was socialist patriotism, which is an invention of socialist countries. It appeared before USSR, but only found practical application for the first time in USSR, as AES first took root there. Socialists are patriots in every AES context
East Germany did come into the fold, and it was patriotic throughout out the Cold War period. "Socialism in one country" didn't mean in ONLY one country, just one country at a time, which is the natural progression. Love of one's community & family & friends and fellow workers cannot have any other term to describe it outside of socialist patriotism.
Yes, that’s fucking exactly why they were all forced/succumbed to it
East Germany came too late, as the hope was intercontinental block and help with development of productive forces in different places, instead of exploitation of peasants to rapidly industrialize in backward country.
Of course it can, it’s called love thy neighbor, lel. If you are redefining patriotism in your head to mean worker solidarity then congratulations, but that’s not patriotism.
Socialist patriotism isn't something I defined, it exists/existed in all AES countries, including ones who were formerly imperialistic or had slavery & indigenous removal like Cuba & East Germany and others
You just aren't looking at what exists, you're choosing abstraction and simple negation instead
" Cuban history schoolbooks spoke of the “martyrs”
who had died for “Patriotismo Socialista.” Mao Zedong also adopted a version
of his own.116 In whatever remains of a worldwide far-left Marxist movement,
the concept of socialist patriotism is still a current term. It can be found on left-
wing websites, and in the press releases of the North Korean news agency.1"
"All Central and Eastern European countries developed their own version of socialist
patriotism: in the DDR it was called sozialistischer patriotismus, in Romania patrio-
tismului revolutionar socialist, in Poland patriotyzmu socjalistznego, in Hungary
szocialista hazafisa ́g. Each party constructed its own variety, usually drawing exten-
sively on existing national traditions, including those on the political right."
Yes, and it was garbage idea everywhere. If you don’t transcend patriotism into international solidarity, sooner or later it will give brainworms to noticeable part of population. It’s very cool when socialist think that their countrymen not having TVs is bigger outrage then Africa not having electric lighting in lot of places
Of course there is, the negation of nation should abolish patriotism. Once again, where was patriotism before nation states among disposed masses?
Patriotism is already highest form of brain worms, where people might choose solidarity with the oppressor, cause they speak same language, it cannot become even more rabid.
“Simplistic” negation? Since when negation is simplistic? Both are complete processes in themselves.
Maybe my antipatriotism is negation and class solidarity is negation of negation? Curious thing, that biggest boom of anti patriotism during ww1 resulted in russian revolution and very near in that in germany or later italy. Maybe antipatriotism is necessary in imperial core then?
Marxian dialectics involves "negation of negation"... simplistic negation is just one-dimensional rebellion, not revolution
The USSR revolution was an actual outpouring of socialist patriotism, and "revolutionary defeatism" was employed in the larger context of building beyond the Tsarist backwardness... that process couldn't have been completed or even attempted without a love for one's country. As Lenin says, building on Disraeli's Sybil that Lenin loved dearly:
" There are two nations in every modern nation—we say to all nationalist-socialists. There are two national cultures in every national culture. There is the Great-Russian culture of the Purishkeviches, Guchkovs and Struves—hut there is also the Great-Russian culture typified in the names of Chernyshevsky and Plekhanov. There are the same two cultures in the Ukraine as there are in Germany, in France, in England, among the Jews, and so forth. If the majority of the Ukrainian workers are under the influence of Great-Russian culture, we also know definitely that the ideas of Great-Russian democracy and Social-Democracy operate parallel with the Great-Russian clerical and bourgeois culture. In fighting the latter kind of “culture”, the Ukrainian Marxist will always bring the former into focus, and say to his workers: “We must snatch at, make use of, and develop to the utmost every opportunity for intercourse with the Great-Russian class-conscious workers, with their literature and with their range of ideas; the fundamental interests of both the Ukrainian and the Great-Russian working-class movements demand it.”
If a Ukrainian Marxist allows himself to he swayed by his quite legitimate and natural hatred of the Great-Russian oppressors to such a degree that he transfers even a particle of this hatred, even if it be only estrangement, to the proletarian culture and proletarian cause of the Great-Russian workers, then such a Marxist will get bogged down in bourgeois nationalism. Similarly, the Great-Russian Marxist will be bogged down, not only in bourgeois, but also in Black-Hundred nationalism, if he loses sight, even for a moment, of the demand for complete equality for the Ukrainians, or of their right to forum an independent state. "
Rebellion is anti-dialectical without this recognition of primary contradictions. Rebellion and revolution in this context are at times even antagonistic
Negation, despite being opposed to primary, is anything but simplistic. Idealism negated from materialism, have gone completely esoteric evolving into hegel, if you forgot.
So, exactly class solidarity with disregard to the countries? Huh :lenin-confused:
crossposter is mod of the sub and a "patriotic socialism" post is stickied
someone here on hexbear has explained the difference between global south national liberation movements against colonialism and imperial core patriotism but I don't even have the energy to look for it
I mean it's as simple as national movements in oppressed countries oppose oppression. Nationalism in oppressive countries supports oppression
Yeah, there are useful parallels in the difference between white pride movements vs other ethnic pride movements, "straight pride" vs gay/ trans pride, etc.
Pride/ nationalist movements of dominant groups basically just exist to revel in and reinforce that domination, pride & nationalist groups of marginalized groups tend to focus on keeping people from feeling horrible about themselves for belonging to marginalized groups, and to try to make them less socially and politically marginalized in general.
American patriots can be "other ethnic groups" and have gay/trans pride at the same time
National chauvinism can exist in big & small nations
When your country has been occupied and your people have been oppressed by foreign powers for decades, it’s okay to be patriotic. When your country does the occupation and oppression, it’s not okay to be patriotic. Simple as can be
there is a difference between proletarian patriotism & bourgeois chauvinism
imperial core patriotism doesn't recognize any nation but itself, it is a foreover monster, a cancer that gobbles all it can until it is either consumed or consuming, this is why ussr good, even if it wasn't a national liberation it didn't use patriotism to elevate one above all in a nazi paradox (the paradox being that if the enemy is weak there is no need to rise above it, if it is strong there is no reason to elevate above it), it instead helped friendly nations grow and strengthen and nations become friendly, also why so many communists fell in 1990 though unfortunately
USSR did use patriotism, and so did East Germany
our preferred troll, read the comment again, it was not imperialist patriotism, I explained why, I am not going into philosophy and how the ussr deterritorialized patriotism
American chauvinism & xenophobia are not the same things as patriotic socialism & proletarian internationalism in America, which by themselves are not mutually exclusive
USSR never deterritorialized patriotism, it was always tied to the reality of the land & the people of the constituent republics & fraternal relations among socialist nations
again you didn't read the first comment, as it was exactly my point, the patriotism in the ussr was as much tied to the outside friendly nations as it was to the republics, which were already a deterritorialization compared to bourgeois patriotism, and always subservient to the greater well being of the soviets
Socialist patriotism isn't bourgeois patriotism/chauvinism, the two are anathema
do you know how to read? it was't in any of my comments
okay
It was desperate measure of 30s though, to find common ground amidst class war in ussr before invasion. It should have been temporary deviation (to use, not to instill). Alas, patriotism got its wormhooks, and mutated over ussr decay period into nationalism. One shouldn’t mistake that for patriotism being desirable.
No, proletarian patriotism in USSR was a constant throughout... as it was in East Germany after WWII
Chauvinism isn't desirable, but pride in one's country & people is
Genuinely where before 30s? Movies about great man to instill pride in past where done then, church was slowly let go.
It isn’t desirable, it’s sometimes necessary evil to forge bonds between classes, but they are rotten from within. As soon as you have more solidarity with petit bourgeois fuck than with worker, cause one is from the same nation and the latter isn’t, you’ve got a problem.
National xenophobic issues in ussr give fairly illustrative example, with slow displacement into Russian chauvinism.
Soviet patriotism & the "Soviet person" was simultaneously proletarian internationalist & proud of their heritage & national identity
Yes, love of one's country & people is "socialism" at its very heart. There is no "forging bonds between classes" as such, it's about promoting socially necessary relations between & among Soviet nations. Indigenization was part of this process, but so was the "New Soviet man", these process worked in tandem
Great-Russian chauvinism always existed in those areas, and only a "patriotic socialism" could address it
But new soviet man wasn’t rooted in nation crucially, while patriotism was. Just look into output of movies before war, with nevsky and grozny pics. It’s fairly obvious what they are doing and why: they are telling kulaks and assorted declassed elements - look, at least we are russians, we can kill any invasion.
Country is garbage heap invented whole cloth after feudalism has finished dividing finite land. What is one’s country if you are born in Lorraine?
People is one thing, you can like your place of growing up (as in location and people), people like remembering childhood. but being proud of kings who fucked over all your ancestry requires truly mesmerizing leap to be considered desirable.
Class solidarity could address it, with indifference to place of birth. But alas, the germany got fucked
Stalin referred to the Russian nation as the "elder brother" among the constituent republics. The New Soviet man was integral to forming the Soviet patriotism in both its many constituent national contexts & in the overall production of Soviet national identity
Marx was born in Trier which is in the "Sar-Lor-Lux" region, and is inherently a mishmash of Francophone & Germanic influences. But Marx was German
Patriotic socialism has nothing to do with being proud of kings
East Germany was patriotic in the Cold War period
Yes, and I’m again telling you the reason why stalin did it: it was class glue to hold on till the war, or the vlasov affair prolly would have been much worse.
You don’t need patriotism, ffs, worker solidarity isn’t patriotism, and worker pride (so to say) isn’t patriotism.
The Soviet Union took shortcut and it backfired 50 years later when shortcut engineers were purged, and nomenklatura decided that all was fine, we should continue. considering the boomer state in eastern europe - it backfired everywhere
The purge was ongoing, and Soviet patriotism existed before the 1930s and after the war as well
Patriotism is exactly what USSR promoted, in a proletarian internationalist context
It wasn't the socialist patriotism that backfired, it was the anti-Stalinist turn
Again, where?
Because it’s very neat shortcut allowing to involve national and petit bourgeoisie in liberation struggle. But it’s that - shortcut to first stage of revolution.
Yes, and that turn includes leaving patriotism fester and morph beneath the surface.
The first stage of revolution was in 1917-1924
Patriotic socialism was promoted through East Slav & Central Asian & Caucasus and Far East Areas
It wasn't socialist patriotism that began to fester, it was the idiocy of Great-Russians trying to fight against the Nazi-stoked chauvinism in the least effective ways throughout those areas
In each instance, it was the Soviet socialist patriotism at odds with this genocidal ethnocentrism in places like Crimea & Chechen areas & elsewhere
Yea, but it wasn’t patriotic, not at first. Patriotism is invention of nation states, lol, when did it appear you think? It has obvious trappings and goals, and I cannot conceive why it’s desirable state of affairs for socialist.
Obviously, when it was understood that germany isn’t coming to the fold (and ussr was doomed from then tbh), they’ve pivoted through stalin into in-one-country formula. But it is that - pivot and deviation dictated by the nature of struggle, class antagonism and foreign enemies. It isn’t in itself good or desirable, it’s something that was imposed upon fledging Soviet Union. And again, if you trace art and culture of ussr, which was fairly bound to party you can see it reorienting in 35-39 very rapidly into embracing not revolutionary struggles, but past great man of russia.
No, it was socialist patriotism, which is an invention of socialist countries. It appeared before USSR, but only found practical application for the first time in USSR, as AES first took root there. Socialists are patriots in every AES context
East Germany did come into the fold, and it was patriotic throughout out the Cold War period. "Socialism in one country" didn't mean in ONLY one country, just one country at a time, which is the natural progression. Love of one's community & family & friends and fellow workers cannot have any other term to describe it outside of socialist patriotism.
Yes, that’s fucking exactly why they were all forced/succumbed to it
East Germany came too late, as the hope was intercontinental block and help with development of productive forces in different places, instead of exploitation of peasants to rapidly industrialize in backward country.
Of course it can, it’s called love thy neighbor, lel. If you are redefining patriotism in your head to mean worker solidarity then congratulations, but that’s not patriotism.
Socialist patriotism isn't something I defined, it exists/existed in all AES countries, including ones who were formerly imperialistic or had slavery & indigenous removal like Cuba & East Germany and others
Then we agree to disagree that such a thing exists :shrug-outta-hecks:
You just aren't looking at what exists, you're choosing abstraction and simple negation instead
" Cuban history schoolbooks spoke of the “martyrs” who had died for “Patriotismo Socialista.” Mao Zedong also adopted a version of his own.116 In whatever remains of a worldwide far-left Marxist movement, the concept of socialist patriotism is still a current term. It can be found on left- wing websites, and in the press releases of the North Korean news agency.1"
"All Central and Eastern European countries developed their own version of socialist patriotism: in the DDR it was called sozialistischer patriotismus, in Romania patrio- tismului revolutionar socialist, in Poland patriotyzmu socjalistznego, in Hungary szocialista hazafisa ́g. Each party constructed its own variety, usually drawing exten- sively on existing national traditions, including those on the political right."
Yes, and it was garbage idea everywhere. If you don’t transcend patriotism into international solidarity, sooner or later it will give brainworms to noticeable part of population. It’s very cool when socialist think that their countrymen not having TVs is bigger outrage then Africa not having electric lighting in lot of places
There is no "transcendence" without negation of negation
You can't just undialectically "abolish" what exists in this simplistic way
What exists must be driven to extreme & the higher form emerges from the "womb" of the old
African countries have patriotic socialism too
Of course there is, the negation of nation should abolish patriotism. Once again, where was patriotism before nation states among disposed masses?
Patriotism is already highest form of brain worms, where people might choose solidarity with the oppressor, cause they speak same language, it cannot become even more rabid.
No, simplistic "negation" is anti-Marxian and has nothing to do with scientific socialism
Socialist patriotism is the key to the solution of this problem with building beyond backwardness & chauvinism
Telling people they can't have love for their communities & families & countries is not socialism lmfao
“Simplistic” negation? Since when negation is simplistic? Both are complete processes in themselves.
Maybe my antipatriotism is negation and class solidarity is negation of negation? Curious thing, that biggest boom of anti patriotism during ww1 resulted in russian revolution and very near in that in germany or later italy. Maybe antipatriotism is necessary in imperial core then?
Marxian dialectics involves "negation of negation"... simplistic negation is just one-dimensional rebellion, not revolution
The USSR revolution was an actual outpouring of socialist patriotism, and "revolutionary defeatism" was employed in the larger context of building beyond the Tsarist backwardness... that process couldn't have been completed or even attempted without a love for one's country. As Lenin says, building on Disraeli's Sybil that Lenin loved dearly:
" There are two nations in every modern nation—we say to all nationalist-socialists. There are two national cultures in every national culture. There is the Great-Russian culture of the Purishkeviches, Guchkovs and Struves—hut there is also the Great-Russian culture typified in the names of Chernyshevsky and Plekhanov. There are the same two cultures in the Ukraine as there are in Germany, in France, in England, among the Jews, and so forth. If the majority of the Ukrainian workers are under the influence of Great-Russian culture, we also know definitely that the ideas of Great-Russian democracy and Social-Democracy operate parallel with the Great-Russian clerical and bourgeois culture. In fighting the latter kind of “culture”, the Ukrainian Marxist will always bring the former into focus, and say to his workers: “We must snatch at, make use of, and develop to the utmost every opportunity for intercourse with the Great-Russian class-conscious workers, with their literature and with their range of ideas; the fundamental interests of both the Ukrainian and the Great-Russian working-class movements demand it.”
If a Ukrainian Marxist allows himself to he swayed by his quite legitimate and natural hatred of the Great-Russian oppressors to such a degree that he transfers even a particle of this hatred, even if it be only estrangement, to the proletarian culture and proletarian cause of the Great-Russian workers, then such a Marxist will get bogged down in bourgeois nationalism. Similarly, the Great-Russian Marxist will be bogged down, not only in bourgeois, but also in Black-Hundred nationalism, if he loses sight, even for a moment, of the demand for complete equality for the Ukrainians, or of their right to forum an independent state. "
Rebellion is anti-dialectical without this recognition of primary contradictions. Rebellion and revolution in this context are at times even antagonistic
Negation, despite being opposed to primary, is anything but simplistic. Idealism negated from materialism, have gone completely esoteric evolving into hegel, if you forgot.
So, exactly class solidarity with disregard to the countries? Huh :lenin-confused:
deleted by creator