Upvoting despite thinking you're going a little overboard with the "canary in the genocidal coal mine", because this is a difficult and important question. The solution here isn't obvious/simple, so I don't think people should be attacking each other so viciously.
There're many trade offs here (shit, I sound like a fucking economist). Spreading a lingua franca to a poor area to give people access to world literature, education, the ability to travel and pursue a better profession vs. saving a potentially endangered language. Promoting a more cosmopolitan, tolerant, egalitarian, modern culture vs. preserving a unique culture, avoiding disrupting existing families and ancient ways of life. Accelerating development vs. protecting a pristine environment and a less energy-intensive rural economy.
There are winners and losers in either scenario. If you imagine yourself as a young Uighur - would you want to destroy the old ways or remain backward? Leap forward into the great unknown or embrace the life you know and love? It's a genuinely hard choice.
I would conclude that some version of change, development, globalization is inevitable, at least in our current world. If Uighurs don't learn Mandarin, they'll learn English instead, which is even further away from their roots. Sweden making every Swede study English isn't genocide - so this isn't either. But at the same time such change should happen gradually, voluntarily. When it happens forcefully, it breeds rejection and resentment. Force IS justified if there are threats of fundamentalist/terrorist groups though, especially when they're backed by Americans and Saudis - the Uighur fighters, coming from China, were some of the most extreme in the Syrian Civil War, for instance. It's not a made-up threat.
It's also hard to make conclusions about what's really going on in Xinjiang - boo the lack of Chinese transparency and propaganda from every Western source, boooo!
There are just a bunch of red flags to me which, in a low-information context, make me skeptical/critical. Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
I appreciate your perspective, though, and I agree that everything is a tradeoff. That’s the nature of decision-making in a complex world.
You’re right, I don’t know what I would want if I were a Uighur. I’m frankly unsure what the Uighurs themselves want when it comes to this. From what I’ve read, a lot of them don’t like the camps, or at least a lot of them don’t like what they have to trade away to have access to the camps. It does strike me that Uighur voices, to the extent we have access to them, are the most important piece of the conversation. But, I understand we can’t trust what we hear, so, again, I dunno.
I know from people in my life, though, who are fighting ongoing colonialism, that they want to both keep ‘the old ways’ and ‘move forward’, and that those two things are not diametrically opposed. All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is... unclear.
I’m pretty much done talking about this here, tbh. It’s obviously an important conversation, but I don’t have the emotional capacity for this haha. Obviously I agree it’s complex and nuanced and that people shouldn’t be so vicious, but I think that is just the nature of any ‘China’ conversation on the left right now, so I’m heading out. Thanks for your insight, and for the compassion :af-heart:
All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is… unclear.
Very well put! Couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly my thinking.
Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
Yes, I'd be a lot more critical of China if the US media weren't constantly demonizing China for... existing, not just making questionable power moves.
I don’t have the emotional capacity for this
Totally understandable. Fighting is no fun. Cheers!
Upvoting despite thinking you're going a little overboard with the "canary in the genocidal coal mine", because this is a difficult and important question. The solution here isn't obvious/simple, so I don't think people should be attacking each other so viciously.
There're many trade offs here (shit, I sound like a fucking economist). Spreading a lingua franca to a poor area to give people access to world literature, education, the ability to travel and pursue a better profession vs. saving a potentially endangered language. Promoting a more cosmopolitan, tolerant, egalitarian, modern culture vs. preserving a unique culture, avoiding disrupting existing families and ancient ways of life. Accelerating development vs. protecting a pristine environment and a less energy-intensive rural economy.
There are winners and losers in either scenario. If you imagine yourself as a young Uighur - would you want to destroy the old ways or remain backward? Leap forward into the great unknown or embrace the life you know and love? It's a genuinely hard choice.
I would conclude that some version of change, development, globalization is inevitable, at least in our current world. If Uighurs don't learn Mandarin, they'll learn English instead, which is even further away from their roots. Sweden making every Swede study English isn't genocide - so this isn't either. But at the same time such change should happen gradually, voluntarily. When it happens forcefully, it breeds rejection and resentment. Force IS justified if there are threats of fundamentalist/terrorist groups though, especially when they're backed by Americans and Saudis - the Uighur fighters, coming from China, were some of the most extreme in the Syrian Civil War, for instance. It's not a made-up threat.
It's also hard to make conclusions about what's really going on in Xinjiang - boo the lack of Chinese transparency and propaganda from every Western source, boooo!
There are just a bunch of red flags to me which, in a low-information context, make me skeptical/critical. Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
I appreciate your perspective, though, and I agree that everything is a tradeoff. That’s the nature of decision-making in a complex world.
You’re right, I don’t know what I would want if I were a Uighur. I’m frankly unsure what the Uighurs themselves want when it comes to this. From what I’ve read, a lot of them don’t like the camps, or at least a lot of them don’t like what they have to trade away to have access to the camps. It does strike me that Uighur voices, to the extent we have access to them, are the most important piece of the conversation. But, I understand we can’t trust what we hear, so, again, I dunno.
I know from people in my life, though, who are fighting ongoing colonialism, that they want to both keep ‘the old ways’ and ‘move forward’, and that those two things are not diametrically opposed. All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is... unclear.
I’m pretty much done talking about this here, tbh. It’s obviously an important conversation, but I don’t have the emotional capacity for this haha. Obviously I agree it’s complex and nuanced and that people shouldn’t be so vicious, but I think that is just the nature of any ‘China’ conversation on the left right now, so I’m heading out. Thanks for your insight, and for the compassion :af-heart:
Very well put! Couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly my thinking.
Yes, I'd be a lot more critical of China if the US media weren't constantly demonizing China for... existing, not just making questionable power moves.
Totally understandable. Fighting is no fun. Cheers!
:heart-sickle: