He is a senior advisor at the World Uyghur Congress and founder of Uyghur Academy
These kinds of exaggerations about "victims of communism" always come off as a sorry of soft Holocaust denial to me.
By making the communists out to be worse, these people are helping to make the atrocities of the Nazis seem better.
It's "liberals hate socialists more than they hate fascists" in action.
these people are helping to make the atrocities of the Nazis seem better.
That's literally their goal
It’s actually kind of surprising they don’t count Holocaust victims as victims of communism because they were the National sOcIaLiSt Party.
People who care this to the Holocaust are insane, it's not even clear right now whether or not any Uyghurs have even been killed, yet apparently it's worse than the Holocaust?
It's because these people don't think the Holocaust was that bad, duh. It's only bad when China does it
*it's only bad when they accuse China of it as a cheap ploy to manufacture consent for intervention and a return to capitalism
You think thats bad? I was arguing with someone about Tiananmen in a thread earlier and he called it (the killing of protestors) "a holocaust"
this narrative is literally based on a single recent report by an uncorroborated source that claims over 10,000 people were killed by the government which is directly contradicted by virtually even every western source that was there at the time. Even the NSAs and hospital records own data estimated only 200-500 deaths and a lot of those were soldiers too.
For instance, he suspects that videos that recently emerged of Uyghur forced labourers “came out too freely”, likening it to a “proof of life” video – a tactic used by the Chinese Communist Party to “divert international attention” away from what Sidick calls “distributed mass murdering”.
Everybody: Stupid tankies you can't call everything a pysop.
Also everybody: The only piece of visual evidence we have of our claim of genocide maybe a psyop to prove that there is no genocide.
I don't want to be the crazy guy who denies genocide but they're making it really hard to go along. What get's me the most is that there's no discussion of ideology: We knew the Nazi's were killing the Jews because they were saying it since day 1. Why is China doing this to the Uighers? You can talk about Han chauvinism but then you have to account for why Han chauvinism shifted from assimilationist to exterminationist. Because historically the difference between Han and not Han was submission to the Chinese state. With the non-han other usually containing many people who used to be Han. What i'm saying is that Adrian Zenz needs to read theory.
What get’s me the most is that there’s no discussion of ideology: We knew the Nazi’s were killing the Jews because they were saying it since day 1. Why is China doing this to the Uighers? You can talk about Han chauvinism but then you have to account for why Han chauvinism shifted from assimilationist to exterminationist.
There's also the way the state propaganda differs: Nazi propaganda was just an endless stream of racist and fascist bile that painted everyone they disliked as some sort of vermin to be stamped out, whereas Chinese state propaganda is full of anti-racism campaigns and celebrations of culture and diversity (even if this crosses the line into commodification of minority cultures). How exactly are you going to manufacture consent for genocide when you're telling the people you need to go along with it how great your intended victims are and how everyone needs to peacefully coexist?
They're definitely altering Uyghur culture, at least. The area is pretty separatist while still being a part of China, which is even more of an issue given all the Silk Road stuff they're working on. The question for China, then, is how to remove that clash.
The American approach to this is military intervention, coups, drone strikes, etc. The Chinese approach is probably more like the Han assimilation you mentioned - China isn't going to kill all Uyghurs or make them give up their faith, Xi has said as much and they are still Chinese citizens. IMO, it still feels like imperialism, and China isn't developing the area for altruistic reasons, but in all likelyhood the quality of life for Uyghurs will improve as they're assimilated, not entirely unlike American immigrants tend to do, and comparing it to the Holocaust is sickening.it still feels like imperialism, and China isn’t developing the area for altruistic reasons
There's a word for this: cultural genocide. And it's generally regarded as a bad thing, regardless of economic intentions or outcomes. I'm not gonna say that's what China's doing here, because no one knows anything about what's happening for some reason, but I will say that's a lot what this looks like.
Well then by that definition any development of a specific region with a distinct culture is cultural genocide.
I don't think that that is helpful.Hahaha uh huh. I'm not sure how to argue against this, tbh. It's too blind to imperialism and colonialism I'm not sure where to start. I think the point is that the people aren't 'developing', they're 'being developed' in a way that is making their culture disappear. Most notably language, which is the classic canary in the genocidal coal mine.
Maybe you could offer your personal definition of cultural genocide?
Not my definition:
The Armenian Genocide Museum defines cultural genocide as "acts and measures undertaken to destroy nations' or ethnic groups' culture through spiritual, national, and cultural destruction."
wikiI do not see that in Xinjiang.
When you talk about language, why is it bad for Uyghurs to learn Mandarin if that helps them better integrate and understand wider society?
For example, wouldn't it be better if migrants in the US who only speak Spanish were taught English so they can better interact with the rest of the population?Additionally, that doesn't mean that your language is now banned either, just that your horizon broadens.
I mean, I don't complain about being taught English as a 2nd language at school.
Westerners are projecting their fucked up dynamics of race, culture, and language onto China instead of actually understanding the dynamics there ont heir own terms.
There's a difference between being taught Mandarin and not being taught the Uyghur language.
I agree with your point broadly, but it's worth keeping a more open mind considering what (varying degrees of) repression of a culture can look like
Who says that in Xinjiang they are not being taught their local language anymore?
Upvoting despite thinking you're going a little overboard with the "canary in the genocidal coal mine", because this is a difficult and important question. The solution here isn't obvious/simple, so I don't think people should be attacking each other so viciously.
There're many trade offs here (shit, I sound like a fucking economist). Spreading a lingua franca to a poor area to give people access to world literature, education, the ability to travel and pursue a better profession vs. saving a potentially endangered language. Promoting a more cosmopolitan, tolerant, egalitarian, modern culture vs. preserving a unique culture, avoiding disrupting existing families and ancient ways of life. Accelerating development vs. protecting a pristine environment and a less energy-intensive rural economy.
There are winners and losers in either scenario. If you imagine yourself as a young Uighur - would you want to destroy the old ways or remain backward? Leap forward into the great unknown or embrace the life you know and love? It's a genuinely hard choice.
I would conclude that some version of change, development, globalization is inevitable, at least in our current world. If Uighurs don't learn Mandarin, they'll learn English instead, which is even further away from their roots. Sweden making every Swede study English isn't genocide - so this isn't either. But at the same time such change should happen gradually, voluntarily. When it happens forcefully, it breeds rejection and resentment. Force IS justified if there are threats of fundamentalist/terrorist groups though, especially when they're backed by Americans and Saudis - the Uighur fighters, coming from China, were some of the most extreme in the Syrian Civil War, for instance. It's not a made-up threat.
It's also hard to make conclusions about what's really going on in Xinjiang - boo the lack of Chinese transparency and propaganda from every Western source, boooo!
There are just a bunch of red flags to me which, in a low-information context, make me skeptical/critical. Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
I appreciate your perspective, though, and I agree that everything is a tradeoff. That’s the nature of decision-making in a complex world.
You’re right, I don’t know what I would want if I were a Uighur. I’m frankly unsure what the Uighurs themselves want when it comes to this. From what I’ve read, a lot of them don’t like the camps, or at least a lot of them don’t like what they have to trade away to have access to the camps. It does strike me that Uighur voices, to the extent we have access to them, are the most important piece of the conversation. But, I understand we can’t trust what we hear, so, again, I dunno.
I know from people in my life, though, who are fighting ongoing colonialism, that they want to both keep ‘the old ways’ and ‘move forward’, and that those two things are not diametrically opposed. All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is... unclear.
I’m pretty much done talking about this here, tbh. It’s obviously an important conversation, but I don’t have the emotional capacity for this haha. Obviously I agree it’s complex and nuanced and that people shouldn’t be so vicious, but I think that is just the nature of any ‘China’ conversation on the left right now, so I’m heading out. Thanks for your insight, and for the compassion :af-heart:
All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is… unclear.
Very well put! Couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly my thinking.
Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
Yes, I'd be a lot more critical of China if the US media weren't constantly demonizing China for... existing, not just making questionable power moves.
I don’t have the emotional capacity for this
Totally understandable. Fighting is no fun. Cheers!
Thank you for the reminder, comrade haha not one of my most popular takes on this site ig. At least I got some other comments in here that ppl liked so people know I'm not just being a disingenuous anti-China person
lol its all good fam I think you came around to a good faith eventually which I appreciate, just later on in the thread 😅
There's no cultural genocide happening, though, and the BBC tried really hard to make you think otherwise.
The most basic, seemingly reliable facts about what’s happening:
- schools in Xinxiang don’t teach the Uighur’s language
- the camps and a lot of the development are focussed on sinicizing the Uighurs, explicitly
- the main form of assimilation is making the Uighur’s ‘fit into the economy’, as if they’re not fine just how they are thank you very much haha
- the Chinese government had consistently claimed the camps were about ‘combatting terrorism’, before pivoting to ‘it’s all about skills training and cultural assimilation etc.’
This is all pretty basic stuff that I think all ‘sides’ agree upon. And different people will read this differently, but to me it absolutely screams cultural genocide.
I don't think that's accurate though, according to what I've seen the schools are teaching Uyghur in schools still, and the camps are focused on jobs training. The whole combating of terrorism and skills training fit hand in hand with it there. You can see more here: https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/breaking-down-the-bbcs-visit-to-hotan-xinjiang-e284934a7aab
I read that piece a while ago, thanks hahaha. No one is certain if the camps are voluntary, there’s no way to know that. And there’s a lot of evidence they aren’t.
Frankly, I see no reason to give the Chinese state the benefit of the doubt on this, just as many here see no reason not to.
Ultimately, there is too much we don’t know, which is damning in its own right imo.
I mean I'd assume that the streets aren't empty should prove that Zenz is a fucking liar and to err on the side of believing that the Chinese government isn't doing something heinous since they never have before to other minority populations at least as far as I'm aware
the Chinese government had consistently claimed the camps were about ‘combatting terrorism’, before pivoting to ‘it’s all about skills training and cultural assimilation etc.’
this isn't contradictory
In fact, teaching people skills that will help them better integrate into society is a very good deterrent of terrorism
Yeah this is more or less the case with specific regional dialects of Mandarin. It fuckin sucks but you're correct in saying that those dialects are still taught and learned at home. With regard to other languages, as opposed to dialects, I'm pretty sure that autonomous regions and historically minority-inhabited areas teach in both the minority language and Mandarin.
cultural genocide
except ughyur culture isnt being targeted... but there are armed separatist groups that have killed at least a thousand people in a series of attacks and 5000 went to syria to fight for ISIS
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-china/syria-says-up-to-5000-chinese-uighurs-fighting-in-militant-groups-idUSKBN1840UP]
some aspects of islam are disctinctly reactionary, this is true of every major religion and especially christianity, but in a socialist country religion should be freely acessible to all of the people, women's religous freedoms come before cultural rights that say they cannot be inams or must obey their husbands
https://time.com/3099950/china-muslim-hui-xinjiang-uighur-islam/
china is handling a more serious terrorist threat than any western nation with much less violence and while promoting ugyhur and general muslim cultural themes in the region (in part as a diplomatic tool to appeal to central asian countries coupled with the BRI)
i think if we disregard cia sourced hit pieces emerging at the peak of american crisis its hasty and ignorant to call this genocide
Historically cultural genocide has been done in the name of nebulous but nice sounding ideas like 'progress,' 'civilisation,' or 'modernisation.' So you're again at the point of: What is the driving ideology? Does China still expect the non han to become sedentary rice farmers? Are they attempting to do this by force sedentarisation? The latter would actually explain how you get millions in something that could be described as camps.
They’re definitely altering Uyghur culture
theyre teaching socialist law in these "concentration camps", this is incompatible with treating women as second class citizens, if that is social imperialism its a very understandable form of it...
xinjiang has been explicitly mentioned by us mlitary as a target and one of our reasons for being in afganistan and its central to chinas development plan (BRI).
There are seperatists groups and the chinese state does persue groups that carry out attacks and there has been state repression in response
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Uyghur_unrest
The Nazi's shifted from relocation to extermination easily.
and assimilation isn't great either. The schools in Canada/Australia that they forced First Nations/Aboriginal kids into were pretty damn close to genocide all on their own. If they didn't cross the line.
You can't just erase a culture and say it's okay.
Imagine downvoting a comment saying 'the residential schools were bad' hahaha couldn't be a canadian leftist. The residential schools were 100% genocide; both cultural genocide, and just straight up genocide.
Residential schools aren't good.
Western governments have spent decades building an all encompassing propaganda machine that ensures that they would be. We can't go to war unless the libs believe it's for human rights or some other such bullshit (see "incubator babies" in kuwait, "how they treat women" in afghanistan, "viagra used for mass rape" in libya etc etc).
So consent has to be manufactured, It's always the same and it's embarrassing and sad how many supposed leftists fall for this trick (including admins on this site apparently).
How hard is it for leftist to understand: "we (the west) don't give a shit about human rights, we just want to plunder your land and subdue your population until you are a compliant client state of the empire."
This whole thing is such a mess, I have no idea what to believe. I feel like I’m kinda biased in favor of China but there’s genuinely no neutral sources anywhere. Every article leads back to this one clown Adrian Zenz.
But there’s too many statements from actual Uyghurs to dismiss that there’s some really bad stuff going on.
But there’s too many statements from actual Uyghurs to dismiss that there’s some really bad stuff going on.
You'll notice their testimonies tend to be as trustworthy as people who defect from North Korea.
You'll find the the "testimony" always comes from expats with ties to lunatic right-wing lobbying groups or who are based in Turkey.
The Turkey connection is really interesting. IIRC there have been Uighur volunteers involved with the jihadists sponsored by Turkey in the Syrian Civil War. Turkey is also closely aligned with Qatar, which has been struggling with Saudi Arabia for hegemomy over global fundamentalist Sunni Islam, especially through its control of al-Jazeera and influence over the Muslim Brotherhood.
this is exactly how i feel. i'm at the point where i think it is literally impossible for anyone in the western world to have a good or informed opinion on china
Nazi persecution killed ~11 million people.
There are ~21 million people living in Xinjiang haha.
China has admitted to having had ~half a million youth in detainment, which lines up with estimates that 1-3 million people all told have been involved in the detainments.
I will never say this is a good thing, to have ~5% of a population detained. I will also never compare this to the holocaust lmao ffs
Nazi persecution killed ~11 million people.
Minor correction: 11-12 million is the number of captive civilians that the Nazis killed, 15-16 million is the number of captives (both civilian and POWs) the Nazis killed, and their total victims exceed 30 million.
Thanks for this. I was even misrepresenting the numbers I was using, which are more like 17 millions deaths when you include both Jews and other victims of Nazi persecution.
Don't get me wrong, reeducation camps certainly leave a bad taste in the mouth, but for a state to continue existing it has to be able to dissuade separatist insurgencies. Is there a more humane way for them to do it?
I’m not gonna sit here with the basically no information the international community has and claim I could design something better, you know? Haha
But I think I can imagine some possibilities that I’d be more comfortable with.
Why not just universities/colleges/day schools like people usually do for skills training? Also, ideally they would be entirely voluntary, which it is unclear if the camps are. Indeed, it kinda looks like they’re not?
But also... if we’re accepting this is an important war on terror measure... how many ‘insurgents’ are there, really? I know there has been violence, but nothing on the order of hundreds of thousands, or even possible millions, of ‘extremists’. I’m not sure it’s enough to warrant such a large response. I don’t think that’s the entire motive, tbh. I would suspect the bigger motivation is to prep the area to be the hub for the belt and road initiative?
In which case... is doing involuntary sinicization and skills training to smooth a push for global economic expansion really that defensible? Though, really, I know nothing haha I cannot stress that enough
But ya, a lot of my skepticism about the camps does come from a very instinctive/personal level, where reeducation/internment camps leave more than just a bad taste in my mouth, tbh, cuz of my history and social position and whatnot
Lies on Xinjiang, a 172(so far) page leftist-edited google doc debunking ALL of them. Thoroughly sourced with links throughout.
the WUC, an organization set up by the CIA and headed by a guy who lives in Virginia
I don’t think the Chinese government is genociding the Uyghur people, and I agree that a lot of the press on the subject is effectively just US imperialist propaganda.
I don’t think that pointing out that there is US propaganda about Xinjiang, actually, itself, constitutes an explanation of what’s going on in Xinjiang. But that’s generally as far as any of these threads go. It’s not very satisfactory IMO.
How about looking at the reinstatement of capitalism in China, and thinking about how capitalist relations breed conditions for inequality and discrimination against racial and ethnic minorities (like in the US, for example). Or how about the idea that socialism, and working class control of the productive forces, creates conditions for eliminating these inequalities.
I hear a lot about how the Chinese government is spending money to benefit the Uyghurs, on job training for example. But what is the character of this spending? Is it qualitatively different than how the US government spends money on public education for racial and ethnic minorities?
Yeah, the hyperbolic anti-China propaganda is real, but I'm not about to pretend I'd be okay with the Chinese government participating in any level of ethnic cleansing, nor am I comfortable with assuming that it's innocent simply because the U.S. media tells me they're guilty.
Edit: I'm being downvoted for saying China shouldn't do a genocide. Good to know this is the same old chapo lol
I'm trying to short through the evidence right now, but it's incredibly frustrating. I'll be looking at what looks like unbiased coverage, and then realize their sources are all Radio Free Asia and other CIA fronts. Like what the fuck do you do when every piece of information is being passed through the intelligence agencies before it gets to you? How do you do research like that?
Except the thing about these sorts of issues of fucked up things happening inside a particular country, is that the only sources available when it comes to these sorts of things are domestic or related in one way or another to foreign intellegence agencies.
Regardless of what is happening in China in terms of truth seeking, Nazi Germany allowed inspectors to go look at certain concentration camps and made everything look fine and dandy.
That's exactly what happened with Iraq. Weapons inspectors were allowed in, but the fact that they didn't find anything was used as evidence that Sadam was hiding the WMD's.
Yeah completely agree, when it comes to this sorts of stuff facts don't matter. There's no way to prove anything unless you can independently verify one of the two sides findings, and convincing others will never be possible.
You are being downbeared because you basically just sided with the libs. "I've got no opinion on Cuba but I don't think Castro should've kept slaves!"
