The Elder Scrolls series does do a good job of avoiding being too derivative of Tolkien. Ever since the lore rewrite around Redguard, anyway (between Elder Scrolls 2 and 3, right about 20 years ago coincidentally).
What do you mean? Skyrim has 307 books in it which serve no purpose other than establishing the world/lore. It brought to life various elements previously only known about through such books and which have been established in the lore all the way back around the lore rewrite. ESO is an MMO which is probably best enjoyed as a single player wandering around, questing, and reading lore. It is masterfully crafted and brings so much more of the world to life than any main-line entry to the series. There are also two novels which take place in the setting.
What does it mean to "do something" with the lore?
ESO shows a lot of the background lore stuff that the mainline games ignore, and generally does a better job showing off the setting than they do. Sadly nothing really captures how weird and fucked up the Elder Scrolls setting is, like the world as described in the in-universe books is more like the setting The Witcher series portrays than what the TES games themselves do in terms of idiosyncratic creatures and magic and what absolute pieces of shit everyone in the setting is.
It's really not. The games after Morrowind would function identically if the background lore was just the standard Tolkeinesque fantasy.
The daedric princes are the one aspect of the lore that feels integrated into the games to me, so that is the one exception I would make. Besides that, the lore has very little bearing. Summoning a Fire Atronach would function just as well if you were summoning a fire demon in a different lore setup. According to the lore, the dragons are basically angels with a complex magic language that changes how they interact with the world, but then in practice they just fly around like dragons in any setting and breath fire or frost at you like dragons in any setting.
According to the lore, the dragons are basically angels with a complex magic language that changes how they interact with the world, but then in practice they just fly around like dragons in any setting and breath fire or frost at you like dragons in any setting.
Humans are pretty complicated too, but despite all the complicated thoughts, feelings, desires, goals, and experiences they have, all they do is run at you with an axe and shout "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"
It's a video game, and in this case the dragons are attacking you because they are on the opposite side of an ancient war from you. The game features no fewer than three dragons who are not at war with you, and those dragons behave how you would expect a primordial entity who doesn't desire to kill you to behave. While, yes, Shouts should have been cooler in general, the Shouts they do are the same shouts you do. It's not like they're just breathing fire, they're manipulating the fabric of the universe to bring fire into being, exercising their dominance over the world itself and asserting that, despite the fact that there's no reason there should be, there must now be fire before them.
"Shouts should have been cooler" is a valid criticism, but not an example of failing to implement the lore into the game mechanics.
It’s not like they’re just breathing fire, they’re manipulating the fabric of the universe to bring fire into being, exercising their dominance over the world itself and asserting that, despite the fact that there’s no reason there should be, there must now be fire before them.
Cool. It is functionally and visually the same as if they were just breathing fire.
I mean if all you have to say is something you have already said and that I have already addressed I'm not sure why you even felt the need to reply :shrug-outta-hecks:
The lore is never used outdidr the books, just look at the entire environment of oblivion, it's supposed to be a jungle.
Or just the nine divines. In the north they have different names(and meanings), but in game the nords for some reason have
exactly the same faith as the imperials. Another example: the northern name of Akatosh is supposed to be Alduin. Alduin is not just some evil dragon in the lore but an aspect of the highest of the nine divines. Not ever talked about in game.
Nords are supposed to run around with necklaces if tongues and not use sirge engines because they bring doen the walls with their shouts. In the lore shouting is just the magic of the nords, not some dragon thing.
just look at the entire environment of oblivion, it’s supposed to be a jungle.
There are a million explanations for why Cyrodiil is no longer (or perhaps never was) a jungle. That, in itself, has become an interesting bit of lore.
Or just the nine divines. In the north they have different names(and meanings), but in game the nords for some reason have exactly the same faith as the imperials.
Because two hundred years ago, a god invaded the world and was then beaten in physical combat by a physical manifestation of Akatosh, one of the nine divines. When your god physically manifests and saves the world, that will drive a lot of interest in your religion.
the northern name of Akatosh is supposed to be Alduin. Alduin is not just some evil dragon in the lore but an aspect of the highest of the nine divines. Not ever talked about in game.
The thing about what we hear in the lore is that it can be wrong. Many of the gods have several known aspects. Akatosh to the Empire, Alkosh to the Khajiit, Alduin to the Nords? But either the person who wrote that last part misunderstood the Nords' religion or the Nords themselves in their tradition misunderstood the nature of Akatosh/Alduin. Or, to take another route, it could easily be argued that Alduin is simply an aspect of Akatosh, regardless of how it is framed. I mean, really, you could say all dragons are aspects of Akatosh, or perhaps pieces of Akatosh or avatars of Akatosh, depending on how you want to look at it. Akatosh is time deified. Alduin is the end of time.
Nords are supposed to run around with necklaces if tongues and not use sirge engines because they bring doen the walls with their shouts.
They were said to have done those things a very long time ago, yes, but things change. Skyrim's culture was irreparably changed by the Battle at Red Mountain. Jurgen Windcaller led a movement to completely pacify the concept of shouting, to leave its uses for war behind and to use it only to worship Kyne. That's where the Greybeards come from, and where the warrior-Tongues went. All of this is part of the main quest of the game, you can't miss it.
Daggerfall's story and worldbuilding were pretty "revolutionary" as far as fantasy RPGs go (at the time), and did a lot to distance itself from the now-weird DnD-ish setting the first game was. It's just a shame how overlooked it is. But yeah, ES didn't become as recognizable to us now until Michael Kirkbride entered the scene for Redguard and Morrowind.
The Elder Scrolls series does do a good job of avoiding being too derivative of Tolkien. Ever since the lore rewrite around Redguard, anyway (between Elder Scrolls 2 and 3, right about 20 years ago coincidentally).
They just don't do anything with the lore.
What do you mean? Skyrim has 307 books in it which serve no purpose other than establishing the world/lore. It brought to life various elements previously only known about through such books and which have been established in the lore all the way back around the lore rewrite. ESO is an MMO which is probably best enjoyed as a single player wandering around, questing, and reading lore. It is masterfully crafted and brings so much more of the world to life than any main-line entry to the series. There are also two novels which take place in the setting.
What does it mean to "do something" with the lore?
Actually have it come up in the games outside of books?
ESO shows a lot of the background lore stuff that the mainline games ignore, and generally does a better job showing off the setting than they do. Sadly nothing really captures how weird and fucked up the Elder Scrolls setting is, like the world as described in the in-universe books is more like the setting The Witcher series portrays than what the TES games themselves do in terms of idiosyncratic creatures and magic and what absolute pieces of shit everyone in the setting is.
What do you even mean by that? The lore is the world upon which the games are built. It is baked into the setting, quests, NPCs, etc.
It's really not. The games after Morrowind would function identically if the background lore was just the standard Tolkeinesque fantasy.
The daedric princes are the one aspect of the lore that feels integrated into the games to me, so that is the one exception I would make. Besides that, the lore has very little bearing. Summoning a Fire Atronach would function just as well if you were summoning a fire demon in a different lore setup. According to the lore, the dragons are basically angels with a complex magic language that changes how they interact with the world, but then in practice they just fly around like dragons in any setting and breath fire or frost at you like dragons in any setting.
Humans are pretty complicated too, but despite all the complicated thoughts, feelings, desires, goals, and experiences they have, all they do is run at you with an axe and shout "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"
It's a video game, and in this case the dragons are attacking you because they are on the opposite side of an ancient war from you. The game features no fewer than three dragons who are not at war with you, and those dragons behave how you would expect a primordial entity who doesn't desire to kill you to behave. While, yes, Shouts should have been cooler in general, the Shouts they do are the same shouts you do. It's not like they're just breathing fire, they're manipulating the fabric of the universe to bring fire into being, exercising their dominance over the world itself and asserting that, despite the fact that there's no reason there should be, there must now be fire before them.
"Shouts should have been cooler" is a valid criticism, but not an example of failing to implement the lore into the game mechanics.
Cool. It is functionally and visually the same as if they were just breathing fire.
I mean if all you have to say is something you have already said and that I have already addressed I'm not sure why you even felt the need to reply :shrug-outta-hecks:
The lore is never used outdidr the books, just look at the entire environment of oblivion, it's supposed to be a jungle.
Or just the nine divines. In the north they have different names(and meanings), but in game the nords for some reason have
exactly the same faith as the imperials. Another example: the northern name of Akatosh is supposed to be Alduin. Alduin is not just some evil dragon in the lore but an aspect of the highest of the nine divines. Not ever talked about in game.
Nords are supposed to run around with necklaces if tongues and not use sirge engines because they bring doen the walls with their shouts. In the lore shouting is just the magic of the nords, not some dragon thing.
There are a million explanations for why Cyrodiil is no longer (or perhaps never was) a jungle. That, in itself, has become an interesting bit of lore.
Because two hundred years ago, a god invaded the world and was then beaten in physical combat by a physical manifestation of Akatosh, one of the nine divines. When your god physically manifests and saves the world, that will drive a lot of interest in your religion.
The thing about what we hear in the lore is that it can be wrong. Many of the gods have several known aspects. Akatosh to the Empire, Alkosh to the Khajiit, Alduin to the Nords? But either the person who wrote that last part misunderstood the Nords' religion or the Nords themselves in their tradition misunderstood the nature of Akatosh/Alduin. Or, to take another route, it could easily be argued that Alduin is simply an aspect of Akatosh, regardless of how it is framed. I mean, really, you could say all dragons are aspects of Akatosh, or perhaps pieces of Akatosh or avatars of Akatosh, depending on how you want to look at it. Akatosh is time deified. Alduin is the end of time.
They were said to have done those things a very long time ago, yes, but things change. Skyrim's culture was irreparably changed by the Battle at Red Mountain. Jurgen Windcaller led a movement to completely pacify the concept of shouting, to leave its uses for war behind and to use it only to worship Kyne. That's where the Greybeards come from, and where the warrior-Tongues went. All of this is part of the main quest of the game, you can't miss it.
Daggerfall's story and worldbuilding were pretty "revolutionary" as far as fantasy RPGs go (at the time), and did a lot to distance itself from the now-weird DnD-ish setting the first game was. It's just a shame how overlooked it is. But yeah, ES didn't become as recognizable to us now until Michael Kirkbride entered the scene for Redguard and Morrowind.