You can interpret through context cues whether a statement is an opinion or a fact without someone pointing it out as a disclaimer. If I say 'the red hot chili peppers suck', it should be pretty easy to figure out its a subjective statement because whether or not music is bad is inherently subjective and you can tell its just my opinion because I'm the one who said it. No one is ever stating that these are demonstrable facts because that would be impossible so even if somehow that is what they mean it can't possibly be true and must therefore be a statement of their opinion despite their intent and should be treated as such.
My gripes are personal. I've lost all my high school friend to folk punk, not that they died from it, (those were people I met later) they just started dressing like Peter pan and calling themselves stuff like Feather and Navi and starting bands called Drop Out/Fall in Love and Buy Nothing Life despite being recent high school graduates with swimming pools cause at the end of the day they were just upper class band geeks. Punk is loud and noisy rock n roll that gives you permanent hearing loss from basement shows. Punk is about wearing studs and having cool hair.
"Real Punk" only consists of the nyc/london Classic Punk scene and the 80's hardcore scene and its descendants. What is known by "Folk Punk" is nothing but Folk music with questionable real punk influence. When people try to argue that bands like Billy Bragg are not real punk, while saying that Johnny Hobo is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake punk as Billy Bragg (plus the adolescent cringe). Real punk sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake punk is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music. Some examples of REAL PUNK are Amebix, Catharsis, Blackbird Raum (the only real punk band from the folk punk scene) and Man is the Bastard. Some examples of FAKE PUNK are Pat the Bunny, Chris Burrows and Defiance, Ohio PUNK BELONGS TO HARDCORE NOT TO FOLK, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
A person can speak an opinion objectively and it's still an opinion. It's a very very common use of speech. That doesn't mean it isn't inherently an opinion, if you respond to an opinionative statement as if it were factual I'd say that's more on the respondent. If someone is stating an opinion factually and making bild statements around it, they could in fact be using hyperbole. This is all really normal forms of communication thst as soon as people log on they lose the ability to parse.
Im not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that a lot of (other to be honest because it’s not really present here) times I’ve seen people then take that opinion and then start attacking or demeaning for instance, people who like what they said they dislike. I’m talking about music here specifically, not Treat Discourse.
I am somewhat disconnected from the whole thing because I have a hard time really, like, genuinely finding genres bad. There’s probably something out there I dislike but calling it “bad” gives me bad feelings, because I’m constantly aware of the fact that other people can have different tastes, and have had my tastes change dramatically, so I could just end up accidentally implying I have bad taste later in life or something.
I think I can enlighten a bit. Music dorks who are REALLY into stuff and especially similar genres where you can split hairs and be nervy have a tradition of being harsher than they really mean or making disagreements seem bigger than they are. I used to argue passionately and loudly about music with this older dude who ran a record store and midway he stopped as any 35 year old arguing with a 15 year old did and asked "just to be sure, you're having fun right now right?" And I totally was cause arguing passionate with people over which album by The Cure and going full debate lord about it (it's Seventeen Seconds btw) is fun as hell for many people that are just that into music. There's a general understanding that it's dumb as hell at the end of the day. This especially applies to more underground stuff where if you're involved you probably know half of the people you're talking about.
And I will reiterate if you call.something bad it's the same as saying you don't think it's good because you're speaking about a subjective thing. I guess it's more assertive but that's it.
That’s actually really helpful, sorry about being a dick. I don’t have the important context of like, actual music scenes (I’m just some nerd), and it makes sense that people would sort of get more “serious” about it then they are… Like powerscaling but for music.
Also personally, when I talk music, I know what I like and am passionate about by the general measure of what people enjoy in music is so far removed from my tastes that the diy punk music scene that has been a huge part of my life that it is considered by most to be objectively bad music and by any metric that music is measured, it totally is. So there's both a scrappy underdog thing and a massive sense of irony going on.
Like, not only is this what I listen to but know encyclopedically, participate in, and has influenced who my friends are, how I dress, act and talk since I was 13. Some music has subcultures as well, and punk is mine to the core, even though I'm less precious about it as I grow older, it's the biggest part of who I am. And the music sounds like...this
So when it comes to punk, it's less a musical thing and more of a subculture war thing. I've got beef with folk punk kids.
Ah, I’m misreading intonation, it’s not “folk punk is bad”, it’s “folk punk is bad”. I’ve seen people be very weird about punk before so my response might make more sense with that context. It makes perfect sense to have beef with something that is pretty much entreating on your subculture or feels like it’s co-opting it somewhat.
Also I apologize for comparing to powerscaling, that was a grievous and horrific insult and I do not think it is possible for me to make up for that
I don't know what powerscaling even is tbh. It's also petty sectarianism that isn't really taken seriously person to person toooooooo much. At the end of the day we're all allies in what matters and are more silar to each other than the rest of the world. And folk punk isn't completely an incursion, the roots are there from the start with the pogues and the pub rock roots of early British punk, and if anyone even tries to deny that Mischief Brew or Against Me (up to and including As the Eternal Cowboy, I'm iffy after) isn't just really good tunes I'd have a hard time believing them, I also really like This Bike is a Pipe Bomb. It started as dirty punks writing acoustic songs to busk with and make cash and became the new Ska, a refuge for privileged band geeks but this one combined 1930s train hoppers with modern crusty squatters in a way that was cool until.tom waits fans got involved (no shade to.tom waits himself there)
It’s not the posting, it’s the posting as if your post is somehow objective fact
like “i dont like this genre” is a normal and fair thing that people say, but “this genre is BAD” is a weird way to put it
You can interpret through context cues whether a statement is an opinion or a fact without someone pointing it out as a disclaimer. If I say 'the red hot chili peppers suck', it should be pretty easy to figure out its a subjective statement because whether or not music is bad is inherently subjective and you can tell its just my opinion because I'm the one who said it. No one is ever stating that these are demonstrable facts because that would be impossible so even if somehow that is what they mean it can't possibly be true and must therefore be a statement of their opinion despite their intent and should be treated as such.
Also folk punk sucks.
My gripes are personal. I've lost all my high school friend to folk punk, not that they died from it, (those were people I met later) they just started dressing like Peter pan and calling themselves stuff like Feather and Navi and starting bands called Drop Out/Fall in Love and Buy Nothing Life despite being recent high school graduates with swimming pools cause at the end of the day they were just upper class band geeks. Punk is loud and noisy rock n roll that gives you permanent hearing loss from basement shows. Punk is about wearing studs and having cool hair.
Me barely ironically
Folk punk is truly a fate worse than death
The Millenial Ska guy
I hate ska so much
"Real Punk" only consists of the nyc/london Classic Punk scene and the 80's hardcore scene and its descendants. What is known by "Folk Punk" is nothing but Folk music with questionable real punk influence. When people try to argue that bands like Billy Bragg are not real punk, while saying that Johnny Hobo is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake punk as Billy Bragg (plus the adolescent cringe). Real punk sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake punk is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music. Some examples of REAL PUNK are Amebix, Catharsis, Blackbird Raum (the only real punk band from the folk punk scene) and Man is the Bastard. Some examples of FAKE PUNK are Pat the Bunny, Chris Burrows and Defiance, Ohio PUNK BELONGS TO HARDCORE NOT TO FOLK, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
No, It’s consistently treated as fact and used as a way to ridicule and attack people. Not in this thread, but previous ones.
A person can speak an opinion objectively and it's still an opinion. It's a very very common use of speech. That doesn't mean it isn't inherently an opinion, if you respond to an opinionative statement as if it were factual I'd say that's more on the respondent. If someone is stating an opinion factually and making bild statements around it, they could in fact be using hyperbole. This is all really normal forms of communication thst as soon as people log on they lose the ability to parse.
Im not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that a lot of (other to be honest because it’s not really present here) times I’ve seen people then take that opinion and then start attacking or demeaning for instance, people who like what they said they dislike. I’m talking about music here specifically, not Treat Discourse.
I am somewhat disconnected from the whole thing because I have a hard time really, like, genuinely finding genres bad. There’s probably something out there I dislike but calling it “bad” gives me bad feelings, because I’m constantly aware of the fact that other people can have different tastes, and have had my tastes change dramatically, so I could just end up accidentally implying I have bad taste later in life or something.
I think I can enlighten a bit. Music dorks who are REALLY into stuff and especially similar genres where you can split hairs and be nervy have a tradition of being harsher than they really mean or making disagreements seem bigger than they are. I used to argue passionately and loudly about music with this older dude who ran a record store and midway he stopped as any 35 year old arguing with a 15 year old did and asked "just to be sure, you're having fun right now right?" And I totally was cause arguing passionate with people over which album by The Cure and going full debate lord about it (it's Seventeen Seconds btw) is fun as hell for many people that are just that into music. There's a general understanding that it's dumb as hell at the end of the day. This especially applies to more underground stuff where if you're involved you probably know half of the people you're talking about.
And I will reiterate if you call.something bad it's the same as saying you don't think it's good because you're speaking about a subjective thing. I guess it's more assertive but that's it.
That’s actually really helpful, sorry about being a dick. I don’t have the important context of like, actual music scenes (I’m just some nerd), and it makes sense that people would sort of get more “serious” about it then they are… Like powerscaling but for music.
Also personally, when I talk music, I know what I like and am passionate about by the general measure of what people enjoy in music is so far removed from my tastes that the diy punk music scene that has been a huge part of my life that it is considered by most to be objectively bad music and by any metric that music is measured, it totally is. So there's both a scrappy underdog thing and a massive sense of irony going on.
Like, not only is this what I listen to but know encyclopedically, participate in, and has influenced who my friends are, how I dress, act and talk since I was 13. Some music has subcultures as well, and punk is mine to the core, even though I'm less precious about it as I grow older, it's the biggest part of who I am. And the music sounds like...this
So when it comes to punk, it's less a musical thing and more of a subculture war thing. I've got beef with folk punk kids.
Ah, I’m misreading intonation, it’s not “folk punk is bad”, it’s “folk punk is bad”. I’ve seen people be very weird about punk before so my response might make more sense with that context. It makes perfect sense to have beef with something that is pretty much entreating on your subculture or feels like it’s co-opting it somewhat.
Also I apologize for comparing to powerscaling, that was a grievous and horrific insult and I do not think it is possible for me to make up for that
I don't know what powerscaling even is tbh. It's also petty sectarianism that isn't really taken seriously person to person toooooooo much. At the end of the day we're all allies in what matters and are more silar to each other than the rest of the world. And folk punk isn't completely an incursion, the roots are there from the start with the pogues and the pub rock roots of early British punk, and if anyone even tries to deny that Mischief Brew or Against Me (up to and including As the Eternal Cowboy, I'm iffy after) isn't just really good tunes I'd have a hard time believing them, I also really like This Bike is a Pipe Bomb. It started as dirty punks writing acoustic songs to busk with and make cash and became the new Ska, a refuge for privileged band geeks but this one combined 1930s train hoppers with modern crusty squatters in a way that was cool until.tom waits fans got involved (no shade to.tom waits himself there)
Powerscaling is nerd petty sectarianism, it’s when they compare the power levels of Goku and Sans and argue about them until the sun explodes
I do that for banter purposes at work but it's epy very silly. Like who would win between Snoopy and Kermit the Frog
That’s it’s best form
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: